Special Event – Conversation with Dr Federico G. Villanueva: Dr. David Capes, 01/26/25

Special Event - Conversation with Dr Federico G. Villanueva Dr. David Capes, 01 26 25
===

[00:00:00] Thank you so much for being here. Would you privilege Yeah. Yeah. Are we, lemme make sure we can hear him. Can you? Yeah. Hello. Good morning. Can you hear him? All right. Good. Good. Can you hear me? Maga, that's, uh, good morning in Filipino. So say that a little louder. Maga. Maga, yeah. Mag. Can you say, Magda, that's a word for beautiful.

Maybe you can say to the person beside you, Magda. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, I'll say it to my wife. Yeah. Beautiful morning. Yeah, beautiful morning. So it's, it is kind of a, a, [00:01:00] a wish and such. Alright, so you are, is your middle name La Lament is your middle name. I mean Rico Villanueva. But you, you're sort of known as Mr.

Lament. Lament guy. Maybe The Lament guy? Yeah. Okay. Okay. That microphone, I'll just use this one. Ah, do you want him to use that one? No, no, no. Oh, that one was turned on. Thank you. Golly. I should know better than that. Of course. I should be able to walk up here and not fall too. So, um, second time. I've done that of years.

Um, so where were you brought up? Where were we would say where, where, where, where did you grow up? What part of the Philippines? So, I, I was born in the northern part of the Philippines. So we have 7,000 island here. Yeah. Uh, not all Inha, inhabitable. Yeah. For some reason it's not working there. Yeah. Are we on there?

Yeah, it's on. It's on. We'll try [00:02:00] it one more time. Why is it a little closer? Need a little closer. Okay. Already close. It's right on the side. Hello? No, no, it's still not working. We might need to get that other mic. Okay. I I should use the microphone then. Yeah. Sorry about that. Alright, we're gonna try that one more time.

Hello? Ang. Ang, right. Ang or Maga? Beautiful morning. Beautiful morning. Thank you. Thank you. I'm not sure what the issue is.

That should work. Hello? Okay. It's working now. Still not working. Let's see. Microphones. Don't like me here, huh? Yeah, it's an American microphone. We need a Filipino microphone. Hello? That will pick up your Filipino. I didn't bring my microphone. Yeah. Hello? Oh, there we go. Yeah. All right. Thank you guys. Uh, so, [00:03:00] so David, you were asking where.

Where you, where you grew up? Yeah, up so, so I come from the Philippines, the northern part. We have 7,000 islands, and I belong to the one of those in the northern part called Luon. So I was born there, and then when I was 11 years old, we moved to Manila. That's the capital of the Philippines where I did my education, you know, elementary and then.

Uh, university and so on. Mm. So your family, your family, what did your dad, what'd your parents do? Yeah. Uh, for a living or I, well, I was born a Catholic because we've been under the Spaniards for 350 years, you know, so almost all Philippines, like 85%. But then a Southern Baptist missionary came to our province.

And then my dad was [00:04:00] there during the, one of the, uh, evangelistic event, and he was converted, you know? Mm. And later he became a pastor of a Southern Baptist. I don't know where Southern Baptist come from here in the us, the south, but it's not here. Right? The south. Yeah, the south. Sorry about that. Yeah, sorry.

But yeah, those Baptist, there are a lot of Baptist denominations, Southern Baptist. One of them there are Northern Baptist, American Baptist, independent Baptist. So what kind of Baptists this is related to. Southern Southern. Southern. Southern Baptist. Yeah, Southern. So I'm in the right place. So you're in the right space.

Yeah. So you've come around back, back, back around. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So your dad became a pastor of a Southern Baptist church? Yeah. Okay. So I became brothers and sisters. I have two, uh, brothers. I'm the eldest. So my brother, uh, became a pastor as well of a, one of the mega churches in the Philippines. He's still a pastor.

And my brother as well. So [00:05:00] we are like a bunch of pastors, you know, three pastors and my dad, you know? Yeah, yeah. So you're, you're, you're, there's, there's a lot of faith in your family it sounds like. Mm-hmm. And that was a very influential part of your growing up, right? So what about school, you mentioned?

Yeah. Well, education at university, I did, uh, I started a degree on chemical, no, not chemical engineering, but. Uh, electric engineer, electrical engineer, electrical engineer. But then I realized that, uh, it was not my calling, you know, I was failing my chem chemistry, you know, but I'm glad my son finished chemical engineering.

So. Oh, you've had a son and a daughter, we should say. Yeah. So I have a son who is now a chemical engineer, and my daughter, uh, is an organizational communications. And then I went to the Bible store to do a Bible [00:06:00] school for pastoral training and then a Master's of Divinity. And then I realized that I wanted to, to learn more about the word of God so that I can teach it.

So I had opportunity to, to do a PhD. And that was through Langham partnership, you know, so John, uncle John Stat was, uh. As, as mentioned by Carl was the one who helped to support majority world scholars like myself, you know, who needs to get some more training so that we can tr train others when we go back home.

Mm-hmm. So I finished my PhD in 2007 in the University of Bristol in England after about three to four years with my family there. Move back to the Philippines to continue my ministry there. Mm. And you're teaching there and, but you're also Yes. Helping to edit and create important books that are gonna be read by, and we'll talk about a few of [00:07:00] those here.

And you're, you're married as well? Yes. Oh, I should not forget that, you know. No, I, I just forgot to ask it. Maybe my wife will watch this later. So I'm married to Rosemary. Mm-hmm. Uh. Yep. And, and you happily married and, and heavily she's blessed. Pardon? And, and, and, and the two children then too. And the two children, Amir and Faye.

Their names Amir and Faye. So you, how did, how did you get started writing? Well, let me ask a fundamental question. When we say lament, what are we talking about exactly? The lament, Psalms, Lamentations. What does that mean? Because we're not really very good at that. Yep. The la the lament are uh, I mean basically is the word lament when you hear it, isn't it like, it's like it comes from a very difficult situation.

Like actually it comes from grieving mourning. That's how, where it came from. But then when you say biblical lament, [00:08:00] it's not just about complaining, you know? 'cause there are lots of lamenting these days. You know, you lament about this one about health, politics and so on, but the lament in the biblical sense.

Is lamenting in the presence of God. You know? So it's a prayer of the most intimate kind. Yeah. You don't, you don't lament when you are not close to God, you know? 'cause it's, it's, it's, it's, it, uh, rises out of, uh, an intimate relationship with God. And if I may, uh, you lament is first, uh, four. For our own healing, you know?

'cause you need to express what's in your heart. You know, if you are not real, I mean experiences of trauma, you have to articulate the pain and how do you do that? The best thing to do that is in the presence of the lure. You know? So Psalm 13 would say, how long must I [00:09:00] wrestle with my thoughts? How long must I have?

So in my heart. But he's doing that in the presence of the Lord. This is how long Lord. So there's room for that to. To process our own suffering, you know, piece personal, but also secondly, uh, we lament also, uh, on behalf of others. You know, 'cause there's lots of suffering in the, around the world. So it's also pastoral, but also it's also engaging with what's happening around us.

You know, it's also, yeah. Lament is very important. Yeah. One of the things you shared last night was, was a, I think a letter from Ukraine. That was coming around at Christmas and it, and it talked about the fact that here it was Christmas and yet the lights that we see in the sky are not the Bethlehem star, but that the trail of a rocket coming toward us, a rocket that is gonna explode and destroy and kill.

[00:10:00] And so these are people who are going through a terrible time in Ukraine. They've been at war now for years. It, it so much devastation, so much death. And when you're in the middle of that or when you're close to that, or if you even care about it, there's a sense in which we want to carry that to God.

Exactly. Right. And and that's what Lamin Lamins do. Yes. Right. Help us with that. And, and as I mentioned last night in the lecture, if there are no laments in the church. Only praises. We do not hear the cries of other people because these are, I, I keep on looking for the right English word. They're, they're muted 'cause of so much noise.

You know what mean? Sometimes it's so much upbeat, you know, like praising only, you know, you don't hear the cries of the people. But in the [00:11:00] Psalms there are one outta 50 psalms and a third of them are actually cries. You know, the lament. Of the people. Unfortunately, in the churches, we don't often have praises.

I mean, have laments only praise. Yeah. But in the, in the Psalms, you have praise and lament and even our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross lamented when he said, my God, my God, why has the forsaken? And, and that's what many of my brothers and sisters in Ukraine felt. Because, I mean, one of my, of my colleagues and a friend of mine is from Ukraine.

And he would often text me, just this morning he texted me as well, and often when he text me it's like, what's, what's been happening there? You know, a funeral. Like there's this guy who, who attended the funeral of his own wife and three children. You can't, I mean, he was telling me, I thought that in the past almost three years, I'm [00:12:00] already used to the.

Suffering. You can't get used to it. He said it's really terrible. And, and when you only hear praises in the church, I mean, I was saying as, as I mentioned, uh, last night I attended this conference, you know, when you, Ukraine, when we just, we were still in the pandemic, you know, and then Ukraine attack, you know, in uh, attack.

Russia attack Ukraine. Ukraine is all in my mind. And I said, but we were singing a worship song. I said, how can I bless the Lord? You don't mind. We are right at this very moment. You know, children are being killed. You know, elderly people are fleeing from their hopes in the cold night. It's hard, isn't it?

We don't, but we don't have lament usually. You know, we don't know how to lament. Mm-hmm. That's a big problem. Hmm. Yeah. You, you sort of described a philosophy or a sense of, [00:13:00] of movement in life and, and that you described it as seasons, I think. Yep. Now, here in Houston, uh, we have three seasons hot, not so hot in January.

That's, uh, kind of our three seasons. Oh. So that's kind of what we're used to in terms of a rhythm, but, but frankly, uh. The first season, and I'd like for you to describe each of these. One is the season that you called orientation. What does that mean? Yeah. Before I answer that, we at least you have three season.

We have two seasons, uh, wet and dry. You know, you have rainy season or more rainy season, so, okay. The orientation, disorientation, and orientation. This, this is by Walter Erman, an American Biblical scholar. So Orienta, the season of orientation is a season of wellbeing. When life is sort of, you know, normal, you know, like everything seems to be working well.

You wake up in the morning and, [00:14:00] and then you go to job and it's nothing. Nothing really troubling you that much. So life is good. Life is good. Yeah. Yeah. Life is good. You're feeling life is good? Yeah. Not perfect, but it's good. Yeah, yeah. Now and then that often following the season of orientation is a season of disorientation.

Yes. When suddenly life, you know, meets the, the tragic, I must say that's the worst. You know, somebody dies in the family, you get you, you. Realize, or you discover that you have a cancer or something, you know, suddenly the places where you used to find comfort are no longer there. Just such as in a time of pandemic.

That's a season of disorientation. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So then at that point, life is, is is hard. It's, and, and can even be tragic. Exactly. In a way. Um, and, and often that is fall now. Now you said last night, and I think you're right, that on any [00:15:00] given Sunday. When a pastor stands to speak about a third of the people that he's speaking to or she's speaking to in some churches, um, on a season of disorientation, could be, yeah.

Bad news. They've had bad news. They're, they're dealing with grief in our cases, the loss of our son a few years ago, a season of grief that it is not over in, in, in, in weeks or months or even years. Um, you're dealing with people who've lost jobs and are financially and, and, and ruin tatters, family issues, family breakups, children that are on drugs.

I mean, a lot of things that happen for people. So if, if you're right, then a third of the people sitting there today are people who are going through a really, really rough time, and we don't always have a voice for them to be able to express to God. These kind of things. The, [00:16:00] the lovely thing about the word of GTO is that there is a psalm for every season.

Mm. So there's a psalm for season of orientation. The hymns like, bless the Lord, oh my Soul and all that is within me Bless. So name. That's an example of a hymn. So in a season of orientation, there are also als, but they're also. Psalms, when you are in a season of disorientation, the la immense, you know, so there's, those are really precious.

Like, how long, oh Lord, how long will you hide your face from me? Or My God, my God, you know? Or, uh, arise, oh Lord, come, oh Lord, hey, make hate. Oh Lord, save me. There's urgency. You know, there is desperation and so on, and there are Psalms to express. What you are, what we are going through when we are in that season of disorientation.

That's the beautiful thing about the word of God. Yeah. So all of [00:17:00] us are gonna experience seasons of orientation and then the next season is one of disorientation. Yes. And that's gonna be followed by new, new orientation or how is that different than orientation? Well, the season of new orientation is directly related to, uh, the disorientation.

'cause when you, when you lament, you cry to God and then the Lord answers you. That's, and then what follows is a Thanksgiving psalm. Hmm. And then after that, that season of your orientation sort of settles down and then moves back to. Orientation. Mm-hmm. So that's the idea there. Yeah. God's still good.

There's not much trouble, you know, but you are no longer that excited about, you know, 'cause you know, during the time of Thanksgiving, your orientation. So we move from orientation to disorientation. [00:18:00] We love those happy songs, you know, at church. And the thing that Kathy and I experienced, um, after my, our son Daniel died.

Is we were in such grief and, and sadness and sorrow that to come into church and to worship or try to worship when everything's happy in Jesus. Yeah, that's hard. There was no language for us. There was no place for us to be able to say, oh God, why have you done this? You know, and God, why? 'cause we felt forsaken.

So what is it that churches can do today? To deal with the fact that a third of you are probably going through some really rough stuff and to help you find the language, to be able to express that to God out of an intimacy with God, not stranger, not far, but to be able to say, as you would say, to a friend.

Yeah. Earlier. Once up. Yep. Yeah. There [00:19:00] was an announcement earlier from the women's ministry and I was listening, you know, Angela. I forgot her name, but Lorraine. Lorraine, yeah. Lorraine. You know, saying ask you, how many of you ask How are you? Good morning. But sometimes we just go, you know, and sometimes, sometimes the problem in the church, as one of my students said is that, and he belongs to a big church, you know, a mega church, that actually people are not interested in listening to me, to my problem.

He said, you know, like in the. So, so people don't, are not actually open, you know, there's no space for my not okay experiences. You have to be always okay. That's he what, that's what he said. You know, and, and sadly that's true in many cases because we are in a fast pace society. We're always expected to be, you should move on, you should be okay.

So you're left behind, you know? And so there's a need for the church to create more space. [00:20:00] For our suffering through what songs we need, songs that expresses the elements of the community. We need preaching in the church that doesn't always, you know, emphasize victory all the time. You know, like, you know, victory and so on.

'cause, 'cause not many people experience victory. Uh, a lot of people in the world have experienced defeat. You know, when the, when the Spanish colonizers colonized the Philippines, beginning in 1521, they brought Christianity with them, but they were coming as the conquerors. You know, the victors. We are defeated after 350 years, just when we had our, our freedom.

Then the American scheme, I'm sorry to mention this. We were under the Americans for 40 years again until the [00:21:00] Second World War. We know more of defeat. We know more of defeat than than victory. They Americans, Christians, and Spanish colonizers brought the Bible with them maybe, but because they were the victors, they don't understand what it means.

Maybe, you know, to be on the other side. They know, maybe they brought the Bible with their amen, but they didn't read it properly because they may be. And that's the thing about the laments, the laments come up from a position of weakness. And people don't like that. Don't understand that. You know? 'cause 'cause they have never been there.

When the psalm is says, uh, how long, oh Lord, come on Lord, why do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? That's from a position of desperation. You know, they have nowhere else to go to. And like, they can't call the police. They can't call the police because the police are controlled by the powerful people.

They can't go even to the [00:22:00] court because even the, the court are controlled by the, the wicked people. Where do you go? Well, that's not true in many, in some cases in the west, you know, at least you can go to the court and even the president can be, you know, can be found guilty. Not in other cases, you know.

And not in the Bible, not in the Psalms of La man. And so they, they have these imprecatory prayers, you know, these, these, you know, imprecatory prayers, preparatory prayers. Like, tell us what are those? Yeah, like one of them is, uh, may they be Lord, uh. Destroy them, you know? That's fine. You know, babies. So you talking about enemies, you talking about enemies?

People who are actively trying to harm you, or Psalm 10 15, break the arm of the weak May or some one may another, take his place of leadership. You know, so it's a prayer against his people because they don't have anywhere one else to go to, you know, and so they come to God. You can only understand that if you're in a position or a [00:23:00] context, a social location.

Of, uh, a particular kind, you know? Okay. The oppressed and so on. Well, we can call the police. We can depend upon the army. We can depend upon other powerful people to come to our aid here in our culture. So what are we missing in our context? You entitled your talk last night. Tragic lament. Yeah. What are we missing if we don't properly lament in our seasons of disorientation?

Well, first of all, uh, you relationship with God without the lament as Walter Erman was saying, you become a yes, yes Lord, personally, you know, like you just bow down to God. You don't engage, but, but God doesn't want a covenant relationship, which is unequal. You know, you have a voice and you can say. Lord, [00:24:00] this is really not fair.

You know? So that's one. And, and, but secondly, without the lament, there will be no mechanism whatsoever for, for us to, to experience the healing because unless we go through the process of grieving and psychologists, you know, came to, you know, use this language, but actually it goes back even to the Old Testament, you know, without the crying, without the grieving, without the pouring out, the heart, the anger, and so on.

It'll be very difficult, if not impossible to experience restoration or healing of whatever kind. That's very important. But, but also very important. Without LA men, we will not be able to identify with those who are on the other side, you know, are suffering. So identifying with the poor, with the, with the, with the suffering, with the people who are there.

Right now in Ukraine, unfortunately, every day there's like hundreds of. Bombings, you know, [00:25:00] until this very day, you know, almost three years on. So, so the laments help you to identify with those who suffer and to hear them. And some people would like to just switch off, uh, unmute or mute those voices first, maybe because it's too much for them.

And, and that's all right. You know, if you can no longer bear them. You have to rest sometimes, you know? Mm-hmm. But you have to also open up, you know, to listen to the Christ of others. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and the laments help in that regard. Yeah. Yeah. So they help us heal now and the laments in the Book of Psalms, and there are other ones, there's, Habakkuk has a lament in it.

There's a lot In Job Book of job, there's a book entitled Lamentations. Right. The whole thing is lament. Parts of Jeremiah are lament as well, but they lament a lot of different things. They lament [00:26:00] illness. Yes. What are some things, other things besides personal illness that they, they lament as individuals and then as communities so they lament about injustice, you know, about depression, like something would, it's really about a complaint about the oppression of the poor.

And he couldn't understand why God remains silent in the face of the murder of the innocent, you know? And then the, the, the powerful, uh, wicked seems to be able to do whatever he can and nobody's, uh, checking him on. And then he's also successful, he says there, which contradicts to what someone is saying because someone is saying, you know, that the.

That the righteous are blessed. They're like a tree planted by waters, you know, but the wicked are like shaf, you know, they will be destroyed and so on. But then [00:27:00] in reality, actually that's not what he's seeing. So he believes in the promises of God. But then here is the reality of radical evil and radical sa.

So how do you make sense of that? Is the lament, tragic lament that helps you give voice and language to that, you know, to, to struggle before God. And if we don't struggle in the face of what's happening around us today, I don't know what's happening with your Christianity. You know, if you just, it says okay with you what's happening here?

You're not disturbed. I don't know why. I don't know why. You know, because we, because the, some is would be disturbed whenever an innocent person is killed, crashed. And then sink down that Psalm 10 10. That's the very words that he used, you know? And he cries out why, oh Lord, you stand fire up. Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?

Yeah.[00:28:00]

Huh. Thinking about that, if, if there's somebody here today who's in the season of disorientation because of illness, what psalm should they turn to? Mm-hmm. Psalm, Psalm six would be one. And Psalm 38, Psalm 38, Psalm six, uh, is a Psalm believed to be by scholars about somebody who's really ill, you know? And one of the verse says there, I flood my bed with tears, you know, like day and night.

You know? 'cause when you are sick, you know, you feel, you don't just feel sick physically, but you feel isolated. You feel. So alone in the world, you know, and you have this some to be a companion. You know, remember when I had, if I may, you know, 'cause, 'cause one of the reasons why I was drawn also to the lament was my own experience of depression when I was 20 years old.

I didn't know that, [00:29:00] that that was already depression, but I came to know it at the end of my PhD dissertation. Because I, 'cause in the Philippines, you know, when you say I have the pressure, during those times they will think you are, you know, losing your mind. So we just don't talk about it. We just bear it.

But I, I remember during, I mean, during my early days when I would just wish that I'm not here, I wasn't born, especially during Christmas, you know, but, and so when I did my PhD, I didn't know I had depression, but I just forced my way in. But then the depression just came like crashing down just after my PhD, you know?

So when I, when my examiner said, congratulations Dr. Biba, and after three years I defended my, that's when I felt like, wow, I have my PhD. I finished, but I'm also finished. You know what I mean? Yeah. And the next month, I dunno what I want to get up, and my wife would just help me a lot. But [00:30:00] thankfully my wife used to work there among.

Elderly people. Uh, and she was the one who gives medication and she knows, thank God the Lord prepared her, you know, to take care of her husband during the next, so after my PhD, actually, I dunno what to do. I know what, where to go and so on. But one of the things that helped me was the la where the laments psalm, actually, I remember one, one gloomy, dark afternoon I was in, in the room.

And then I don't know what to do. And then I just opened my Bible and I, I read there Psalm 88, the darkest psalm. That's, I think these are a psalm for depressed people. The, the last word in that psalm is darkness. Yeah. But in, in that psalm, it says, I'm like a man without strength. And in Hebrew, the word man is gaber, which, which can also mean a strong man hero.

I should be. You know, like a hero. I [00:31:00] finished my PhD, you know, and so on. But, but why? Why am I so down? And then I suddenly realize, Lord, I'm not alone. You know, I felt like in that dark room, I have this companion, you know, I'm not a man with no strength. And so that, that night, that afternoon, I mean, that first sustained me, at least for that particular moment, it made me feel that I'm not alone.

And I've written a book, uh, called Lord I'm Depressed. It's a very small book. I didn't really bring a copy with me, but you can actually Google it. You can buy an a Kindle version of that. Lord, I'm depressed where I share my own story of depression and how the Psalm supplement. One of the psalms that really helped me in my depression is Psalm one of 30 out of the depths.

I cry to you and, and, and when you say depths, it could be illness. Mm-hmm. It could be anything, you know, like the pit, [00:32:00] darkness, whatever. But there's someone to cry out too. You know, that, that some helped me during my times of depression and yeah. You can read more about my story if you want. You've also written another book called It's Okay Not to Be.

Okay. Yes, it's okay. Not to be okay. Yeah. Yeah. But if you don't buy that book, it's not Okay. So I always say that. You always say, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but it's always, it's published by Langham, you know? It's okay. Yeah. It's a good book if you buy it. Yeah. It's a good book. And it's about, it's about sort of living, living, uh, these moments.

'cause everyone e either you're in a situation today of orientation or disorientation or new orientation. And it's like a cycle, like the seasons that we go through. Yeah. And there are different times and different moments and different causes for that. And so now the, this language of [00:33:00] lament is given to us as a model.

Jesus modeled it himself. So how would you take, let's say you're in the depths of depression. How would you take Psalm 88? And in a sense, pray the psalm. Does that make sense? There's, there's kind of an, an idea in spiritual practice that you can take a psalm and you can turn that psalm into your own. You can maybe change the words or express it.

Instead of saying the, you know, Lord is my shepherd or something, you would say, Lord, you are my shepherd. In other words, speaking it directly to the Lord. That kind. How would you take a psalm like that and make it your own in the depths, let's say, of the press time? Yeah. Uh, two things there. I think the first is you can use what's called.

Uh, spiritual reading where you read just one verse and meditate on it. And, and as you first, you, you begin with silence, and then you read it slowly because the words of the Psalms is poetry. You cannot read a [00:34:00] poetry and be in her in a hurry, you know, and then try to feel, if there's a word that strikes you, you know, that speaks to you, meditate on that.

And then take the Psalm to God. So you make it a prayer. As, as, uh, what David said, you know, you make it your own prayer. So it's no longer David's prayer. Psalm 88, like, Lord, I'm like a man, a gaver without strength. And that's what I did. You know, that a afternoon. But thank you that you are here with me and so God of mercy upon me.

But then the beautiful thing about Psalm 88 is that it is followed by. Some. 88 is an individual lament. Okay? But then Psalm 89 is a communal lament, you know? 'cause you don't lament on your own. You need a community, you need people, right? Yeah. This is very important. Otherwise, if you just lament on your own, you might be in a spiral, downward spiral until you can no longer.

And that's [00:35:00] where friends, you know, community. And as, for example, I have a friend or a group of friends, uh, we are three couples. They know about my situation. I share it with them. They pray about me, and then my wife as well. You know, the sad thing is that in the church sometimes it's hard to find people whom you can be yourself.

For example, if you say to them, you know, I, I feel like I'm depressed. Instead of understanding you, they would say, you know, maybe you are not praying. Well, you know. You know, I, I sometimes, one time I shared about my, my Depression to a pastor already, and he told me, maybe you no longer practice your SaaS, you know.

And so instead of being encouraged, I was depressed. All the more You feel like, because you feel guilty, right? I, I'm responsible for this is happening. Yeah. So that's why we need in the church to build a community of people. And so I have a community which it's called Community of Lament, you know, so [00:36:00] there are three couples of us.

We meet from time to time. And there you can really be, you know, be yourself, be yourself really, and feel. Accept. We, we've got several questions that come from last night, thanks to Charles Mickey for helping make this, uh, possible. Some, some great ones. And then, uh, I want, let's take 30 seconds on each one.

Okay. When does lament cross the line into blasphemy? Can it cross the line when it arises out of a non-relationship with God and not honesty, you know, just plain anger, you know. Yeah. So it can become that. It can like the murmurings of the Israelites in the desert. God wasn't happy with that 'cause it doesn't come from a genuine relationship and faith for a lot of people.

The joy of the Lord is a strong testimony. Um, how do we have a testimony through lament? [00:37:00] It's a powerful testimony of, um. Humanity being human, because when you are a Christian, it doesn't mean you are no longer a human being. Jesus, when he was in Gethsemane, he said, my soul is overwhelmed with sorrow. You know, Jesus got really down.

And the word Shia in Greek, no, uh, I mean per lipos, no is taken from the word Shia in Hebrew, which can also be. To, uh, this, uh, translated downcast or depressed, you know, and Jesus said to his disciples, I'm really down. Try to say that. Now, if you're a pastor, you might get, you might lose your job. 'cause we, we are expected always to be okay, well, Jesus himself.

Mm-hmm. So why can't we? That's the problem sometimes. Yeah. That's because those seasons do come, um, [00:38:00] is tragic, lament the same thing as sorrow. No there, as I, I mentioned last night, there are degrees, it's sorrow is part of it, but tragic lament is really, you are at the depths, you know, and if it's, it's the opposite of praise.

It's the opposite almost, of like trust you almost at the brink of losing your faith unless God does something. So as the par farthest end, and I think Psalm 39, the lament is like at the, almost there. That's one example of a tragic lament. It ended with a prayer which says, turn away from me, oh Lord, that I may smile again until I am no more.

Period. Get lost, God. He says, that's what he's saying. Yeah, that's tragic lament. Wow. It's not just sorrow, [00:39:00] but it has sorrow. I mean, I mean, sorrow seems to me to be a component of it, but if it's unexpressed to God directly, sorrow doesn't become lament. I think that's very important. You mention, you know, 'cause the key there is if, if you don't express it, it becomes worse, you know?

'cause, 'cause even in a relationship for husband, for example, if you keep on just keeping it in yourself becomes work till one day you just blew up. It's the same thing in our relationship with God. You know, you, you, because you're not honest about it. Suddenly a lot of, some, some people have, have turned away from God.

You know, because the church doesn't, don't have a lot, doesn't allow expressions of LA men, you know, and they have a lot of questions, but there's no place for them. So they just. Mm. Run away from God. It's like in, in social media, you know, you unfriend God unfriend him. Yeah. Yeah. How do you reconcile the call to lament, which is given [00:40:00] us in the scripture, but also in the scripture?

Rejoice always, and again, I say rejoice. Yeah. The, the words of the Apostle Paul should not be taken. Literally as always, you know, because he also says in Romans, uh, 1215, I think that he says, rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. So, so there's also time, you know, you don't rejoice all the time.

Okay. You also mourn with those. The problem is, some Christians take that too, literally, you know, so even if somebody dies, they rejoice, you know? Or they just say, oh, he's in a better place. And that's correct. But you don't understand the pain that they're going through. Yeah. And sometimes it's the unbelievers who are better at comforting because they just go to you and say, that's really terrible, and period.

Whereas the Christian says, well, brother, you know the Lord is with you. You know the true, but he doesn't, they don't feel it at that [00:41:00] particular moment. Yeah. And you need that particular time to process the pain. Mm. And, and always remember that Jesus himself lamented he was not rejoicing on the cross when he said, my God, my God, why has the forsake in me?

He was not obeying Philippians four, four. Well, of course Philippians four, four came later. Yeah, if I'm correct. Yeah. Yeah. Up

here. Here's a really interesting question. Has the TV camera. Interesting cam, question driven lament out of our churches since Lament is not viewer friendly. In other words, not necessarily this camera or that camera, but cameras when, when churches went on, when, uh, broadcast. It's hard to show except after maybe a nine 11 when everybody's feeling that.

Or in our community, we have a [00:42:00] school shooting. Let's say kids are dead. Teachers are dead. Yeah. The shooter's dead. Yeah. And, and then we can find a place for that, but on a regular basis when a third of the people here, if you're right, are going through a really hard time. Yeah. I actually think the other way around.

You know that too much praise. Has actually not been a good promotion for the body of Christ. If you will talk to the young people, and I teach in a university among 18 years old, uh, first year university, they can identify more, not with the app experience, but with the town experience. Okay. They will.

'cause I always ask them, you know, we have lots of experience, sometimes up you are a victory, you know, you have success and so on. And then you have. Uh, struggles, you know, like depression. Where do you feel God? More of that. [00:43:00] Almost all my students would say down, but where does the camera focuses on? Only in the church up, you know, so they cannot identify with the church, you know?

They feel maybe that the church is not for them, you know, because they need a place of authenticity. They're looking for honesty, reality, you know, like, because, 'cause these young people, many of them as you have been, you know, were the idealists and they are, you know, they, they want true, you know, Christianity that reflects the suffering of the world of Jesus himself, as well as the victory.

But the church only emphasizes the. Up. Happy birthday. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're just about outta time. Would you thank Rico Villanueva for me? Thank you. There's a lot more, A lot more here. There's a lot more here. My hope is today we've at least prompted you to think about the possibility that when you're in a season of disorientation in [00:44:00] life and you, that you will find strength and help.

And a uplift through the Psalms. As you take those sorrows to God, send those sorrows to God. Would you let me, uh, pray a prayer? If you would stand with me, my friend. All of you, love for you to stand. As we pray. I'd love please if you would bow your head, close your eyes just for a moment as we pray. If today you are in a season of disorientation, would you please just raise your hand if you feel good?

Good enough. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else? A season of disorientation. Thank you. Thank you. Lots of you. How many of you a season of disorientation. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. In the back. God, I pray for those saints who are here. In a season of [00:45:00] disorientation who are feeling it from the tip top of their head to the tip of their toes, that life is hard.

It's difficult that they're having trouble. I pray for them that they may be able to find strength and help in your laments in the Psalms and Lamentations and other places. They might be able to express that honestly and find a way to move through the sorrow to a time of new orientation, to a time of change, to a time of freshness that becomes a new normal, a new creation for all the rest of us who are not in that season right now.

I pray as they enter a season of orientation disorientation that they may. Also remember what has been said today. Holy Spirit, prompt us to remember, prompt us to the [00:46:00] Psalms, prompt us to the language that we too can pray. The Psalms in the name of Jesus we pray. Amen.