Special Event-Conversation with Dr.’s Ortiz, Monson, and Younger: Mark Lanier, 03/02/25

Special Event - Conversation with Dr.'s Ortiz, Monson, and Younger Mark Lanier, 03 02 25
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[00:00:00] One of the things that I strive to do in this class is to help us understand the Bible in its original context. The more we can go back into its original context, the better we will be informed about how to understand it and apply it in our modern context. It saves us from perhaps making mistakes in application and it certainly enriches our understanding of the text.

So in that regards, there are three different areas that I have found in academics. That help inform better Bible study in [00:01:00] context. We, we can talk about studying the Bible in context, just in the sense of, uh, uh, here's a Bible. We can talk about it just in the sense of like. Pastor Jarret started Ephesians today, and so he gave some background on the relationship between the Ephesian Church and Paul by reading from Acts 19 and 20, and then he started out the book of Ephesians.

And you wanna read in a biblical context like that. It. But if you step outside the pages of the Bible and look for more context to help understand the Bible, three academic disciplines stand out in my mind. One is archeology. I think archeology has helped open an understanding of the Bible in profound ways that have certainly helped me in my understanding and teaching of this book.

And so I [00:02:00] have one of, uh, my. Favorite archeologist in the world. In fact, I dare say my favorite archeologist in the world. Um, who is here this morning, who's gonna give us a sample and a taste of that? I want you to welcome Dr. Steve Ortiz. Come on up here. Steve. Dr. Ortiz is not just an amazing archeologist.

He's actually the head of the archeology program at Lipscomb University, which is ranked. 100% by me is the top archeology school in the nation, if not the world. Have a seat. Um, no. I'm gonna put you right here and uh, uh, we're gonna plug you in. Now I also have the world's greatest. Uh, well, maybe not greatest 'cause there are several others in here who are great as well.

One of the most shining stars of Aerology. And by that I mean the study of [00:03:00] Assyria. Assyria was the next to Egypt. It was one of the superpowers of the ancient world until about six 40 BC when the Babylonians made them. A has been, but, but Assyria for thousand, no, not thousands, but a hundreds and well back into the second century.

Uh, BC was no second millennia. BC was, was like a, this world powerhouse and uh, influenced. Israel, uh, Israel kind of formed a bridge for so long between the Assyrian Empire and the Egyptian Empire. And so Assyria was north of Israel. They conquered the north of Israel, uh, the, the top 10 tribes. And so assy just are always headed north, which is useful because the serologist that I want to interview.

Went to the north campus of CFBC. So he'll be here shortly, but he just, when a serologist go, they just go north. And [00:04:00] so, uh, uh, we're going to save him a seat, but I'll introduce Lawson Younger when he gets in here, uh, at some point tonight. And then the third thing, so, so what has affected me, what has affected my Bible reading is archeology.

Extra biblical textual studies, which means what can we learn from the ancient literature, whether it's Assyrian text, whether it's Ugaritic text, whether it's West Semitic, whatever it may Ely, whatever it may be, what ancient text. Help illuminate the Bible. And, and there's nobody better to talk about that than, than, uh, Lawson when he gets here.

And the third, and maybe the most overlooked is the geography, because so much is driven by geography. Uh, I mean, you, Lubbock would [00:05:00] not be the hub of the plains if it was not exactly where it is. Geologic geographically. Uh, Houston as a port city. Very important that we're a port city. The reason New York City was settled so well is because you can take the Hudson River and you've got deep water portage for the boats.

Uh, geography makes a huge difference. St. Louis grew into the big city. It was because it was a thoroughfare where they built crossing of the Mississippi River for train tracks the first time. So it became the train thoroughfare to cross there. There's so much that's driven by geography and I think the best person to help us understand that is my dear friend, uh, uh, Dr.

Uh, uh, John Monson. Where? Johnny, there you are. Come up here. Please welcome John Monson here as well. Now I will tell you all, um, you are, you were going right here. Um, I will tell you all, I'm gonna put you right here. I will tell [00:06:00] you all that John and his father and Steve Lancaster produced those maps that I used when I was teaching.

If you were here for the class I was teaching where I was trying to show the geography. Ha. And here the atheist has come back south. Okay? You are in this chair over here. You're gonna figure out how to put this on. I can figure it out and, uh uh uh, nah, nah, no, we're good. So I gave these guys some homework.

I said I'm gonna ask you some questions. Some of them are gonna be a little bit about you, just so people know who you are. But most of them are gonna be about how has your academic discipline enriched scripture in ways that can transform our lives? Um, when, when Tyndall house was putting out a new version of the Greek New Testament.

Peter Williams was gracious enough to allow me to do some of the [00:07:00] research work going through old manuscripts and psis to try and figure out whether or not different variant readings of old things might change the Greek text. And he didn't assign me anything too important because my Greek, I'm, I'm a good enough at Greek to know I'm not a Greek scholar.

So what he did instead is give me stuff that's kind of irrelevant. But was just kind so I get recognized as one of the contributors. Um, I'm not looking for you to find these guys to tell us whether or not a Paphitis has an extra iota in the spelling of his name. I'm looking for these guys to give us things that can transform the way we see the world.

And the way we see scripture and the way we understand God. So here's what we're gonna do. Um, you micd up. You ready? Yeah. Ask them first. Yeah. He, he is just driven like a ban sheep from the North campus. Alright, so we're gonna start with Steve Ortiz. Steve, I want you to take just, uh, two minutes. I want you to tell 'em about Beth.

I want to [00:08:00] tell 'em about who you are, uh, uh, what you do and, and, and, uh, uh, why you love Jesus. Well, I'm the archeologist. I get the old mic, so that's how it works. Yep. Then you have to hold it. That's why they gave the old stuff. I wouldn't know. Yeah. Um, uh, Steve Ortiz, I grew up in Los Angeles. Uh, one of my greatest discoveries was Beth when I moved to Arizona and she's my wife and we have, uh, two children.

Um, she's stuck it out with me ever since we, uh, we've lived in Israel, we've moved to New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Uh, she prayed to get out of New Orleans and God heard her prayer and sent Katrina. And so Katrina, uh, everybody blamed George Bush. It was actually be Tiz who, who calls us. Um, we went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

That's just where we fled and that's where God was gracious. Paige Patterson wanted to have an archeology program, uh, [00:09:00] funded it, and that's where we grew. And we would, would come down to Houston. Every other, you know. Two or three times a semester to engage with the scholars that Mark was bringing. And then we had a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, a new president, got rid of the program.

Um, I called Paige, uh, he said, I'll call somebody. And who do you call when you're in trouble? You call Mark Lanier. And uh, mark said, you're gonna love Lipscomb, Steve. I'm gonna move the whole program there. And so us the students, um, it was just a God thing. And I was telling Mark the other day. Uh, I've just always fallen forward or up in, in, in this case.

And so now. You've been there for four or five years. Yes. And, and Lipscomb under his tutelage, was just listed in Christianity today for one of the top 10 archeological discoveries last year. And, uh, he's just doing remarkable work. If you ever want to go on a dig, this is who you want. He grew up, uh, uh, not quite a child of the sixties, but he can still dig it if you want to take it.[00:10:00]

And, uh, and he'll do it quite well. Alright, uh, hang on to the mic, but uh, don't breathe into it too loud. John, I would like you to tell them about your sweet doctor, wife, uh, uh, the pediatrician uta, and, um, tell them also, uh, what drew you first to the geography of the land. IE where did you grow up? Alright, well, I don't know if, can you hear me?

No. Maybe it's not turned on. I think I turned it on, but, uh, alright, try it again. You can hear me All right. Great. Well, Steven Ortiz and I, Dr. Ortiz and I go way back. We've dug together and done various things. Um, my own life at. I was born in Aire in the Congo, where my parents, uh, were free church missionaries.

And then we came back to the States and there was a school in Jerusalem called, uh, American Institute of Holy Land Studies. And my father went over there to administer and then be, and then teach. So for me growing up, I was thrown in to Jerusalem, which is not only Israel, not only Palestine, not only Arab, not only Jewish, it's [00:11:00] everything.

It's like Greenwich Village, but you know, allegated a little bit. It's an incredible place. So I didn't really have a choice but to love biblical geography because A, to get to school, we had to go by the old city of Jerusalem. And B, my father was in that area and very innovatively, created several curriculum and, uh, curriculum.

And Steve and I are both products of that. And so, you know, for me, seeing through all of Hughes and Christ is born in cut and rot or something like that. I mean, it's just. That for growing up, that's just the way it was for me. It was built in, so we'd ride our bikes all over the place and geography of the Bible was just part of our life.

And we in school had to sing the Christmas Carol. There is a, uh, not Christmas, but the Easter, uh, hymn sing. We, we had to sing. There is a green hill near at hand, not a green hill, far away about, about the Easter story because everything was nearby and so it was just built in and, um, it [00:12:00] was just a. Great, great experience and my dear wife, UTA, she's a father of our two kids and they're thriving.

I'm happy about that. We're not, uh, somewhere else. And at the end of the day, it's very, very interesting because in when you're, when you're in Jerusalem and when you're in the Highlands of Judea, nothing is lost on anybody else. And it is true, sorry, UTA, but she knows this. I did marry a young lady from Bethlehem.

And her name was Mary. So a lot of interesting things. No other similarities, but it's very interesting growing up in, in the world of the Bible, the land of the Bible. Alright. And then Lawson, who spoke last night, Lawson is just, um, he's, he's just. Really, really bright in so many different areas. Um, uh, I would like you to tell everybody briefly, 'cause I've had you up here before.

Mm-hmm. And, and I would like you to tell everybody briefly what drew you into the areas in which you study. Uh, well, um, [00:13:00] very briefly. Uh, as an undergraduate, I was a math major and, uh, I took four years of Latin in high school to never study any other language ever again. Uh, that was my intention. I had it all planned out and, uh, for the first time in my life I read one John five 13 and saw these things.

Have I written unto you that believe on the name of the son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life? And I suddenly, uh, realized, uh, that I could know that I had a eternal life. And so, um, I put my faith in Christ that evening. Uh, that radically changed my life. And so as a result, um, differential equations no longer had any interest, uh, for me.

Uh, I wanted to know what the, what the Bible said, and the four years of Latin helped me learn Greek quickly. Uh, Hebrew was naturally the next move I found, uh, that I had a propensity to, to learn, uh, dead languages. [00:14:00] Um. Can't speak any, uh, modern ones. Not even English very well. But anyway, uh, but the point is really that, um, I, I was able to study these things because to be very simple about it, uh, all of these things help you understand better the context, the cultural, uh, historical context in which, uh, the scriptures, uh, came to us.

And so I felt that this is what I wanted to. I'll spend my, my life doing. Alright, so here's kind of my view of this. Hmm. Uh, I'm gonna see if I can make this work a little bit better than it is. Oh, let's see. There we go. Um, sorry about this line. It's the way the lights work in here when we've set this back here, but we have no choice if we consider that the earth has a crust and the earth's crust varies in depth in different places.

Mm-hmm. Um. [00:15:00] I need to draw it upside down there. That's the earth's crust. Want the chair? No, I don't need a chair. Okay. I started to say chairs are for old people and then I realized I'm the oldest guy up here except for maybe Lawson. And the reason I don't want a chair is once I sit down I can't get up.

Um. No. Um, so if this is the Earth's crust, a lot of people, I don't write well upside down, so you'll have to, excuse me. A lot of people live in the crust of the earth and they know a little bit about everything. Sometimes they don't know as much about this as they do about that, but, but we're crust dwellers in a sense.

A few people. Take the time to spend their life digging down here. We'll do it here. Digging down deep below the crust to really explore some area and to to strike oil or to strike water that can then [00:16:00] get distributed to those of us on the crust. That's what these guys have done. So I wanna give you a sample.

If you were to go to Lipscomb. And you were to at Lipscomb, um, go see the little archeology collection that, um, Steve has put together. One of the things he has is an ary. Steve, I want you to describe to him what your ary is, and then we, we'll talk about something important on it. Okay. Um, first off, this is a good illustration, mark, because.

We did not grow up to want to become scholars study. We wanted to study God's word. And it was in the process of studying God's word that we went into the fields. We went into closer, in my case it was archeology. Um, we have a museum. We have to have a teaching program. Students learn from the material culture.

And one of those is a bone box, the ary that Mark's talking about. And, uh, this is secondary. [00:17:00] Burial was popular in the ancient world. And that's, you know, uh, old Testament, you hear, and David died and he was gathered to his father's. Well, that was the family tomb. You'd be buried in the family tomb and then your, your bo your bones would be collected and saved.

And in the Old Testament was a repository. Everybody got gathered in there. So you, you cleaned out a bench, you know, where they laid the body and you throw the body, you know, grandpa in the bones. Then your father gets thrown in there, your mother gets thrown in there. The whole family. When we get to the New Testament, they had individual burials.

They still had the family burials, they still had the, the benches, but they made co cocaine where you can put the individuals like little tunnels to place the body. But they also had, um, keep talking. Thank you. I can use that. Um, they, they also had, uh, these estuaries, they call them bone boxes, made outta limestone.

And archeologists find this [00:18:00] only during the second temple, during the timely New Testament. Give 'em an idea of what size these things are. I mean, they're like a extra large shoebox about, uh, a meter to, you know, half a meter and usually a child burial, it's supposed to be full. Put the full body in there.

Sometimes we'd have more than one individual in these. They need to be the femur. The length. That's the longest one. Yeah. So it's gotta be at least angled that big. Keep going. Um, and so want to put in context or just describe that? Okay. Well, okay. So, you know, archeologists, it helps us date, how many have been traveled to the um, holy Land, holy Interior?

How many have been in the garden tomb? Okay. Yeah. That's the wrong tomb. That's not the tomb of Jesus has. Okay. How do we know this? Because we know how an Old Testament tomb looks. We know how a New Testament tomb looks. There should be these co cocaine, or there should be Aries in that tomb. [00:19:00] They're not there because it's an Old Testament tomb that Gordon Calvary found.

And um, Christians got excited and thinking that's the tomb, but it's really the holy separate or inside the old city because it's a New Testament tomb. And so archeologists use this to help date it. Well, why were they doing this? Because they believed that your flesh contained sin. And we had, this is where you get the modern, the New Testament flesh.

This is where you sin. Don't be sinful, don't be fleshy. Um, so to get to heaven, you had to have all the flesh removed. And so that's, they had to wait for you to decay. And in the New Testament, they, you know, they just had individual burials. And so this is how Jesus would've been buried. They would've assumed his body would've, you know, been laid in the tomb.

It will decay and they put him in this bone box or this ary. [00:20:00] Um, he didn't go in his family tomb. We had a rich ruler that, you know, put him in his own family tomb. Well, when we have Easter, what do we say? He is risen. Well, that's not in the New Testament. They did not walk around saying he has risen, he has risen deed.

But when they said he was risen. They were focusing on, his body didn't have to decay. Why is that? Because he's the perfect lamb. And so we look in the, uh, book of Acts of Paul. He mentions this. Jesus didn't have to undergo decay. David died in the auto undergo decay because King David was a sinner. The sin had to be removed.

And when Paul was preaching in the first century. That's what they focused on. He was preaching to Jews, say, this is the Messiah. This is the one that's chosen. This is the unblemished lamb. His body doesn't have to decay and he can walk out of a tomb because he's [00:21:00] sinless. And that's the early message of Easter.

And that's where, you know, the early church was preaching this. Then he eventually came on to us as Westerners action hero. We think Jesus, you know, we show veggie tail. Jesus coming outta the tomb like he's a. Superheroes. No. He came out as the unblemished lamb and that's what was preached in the early church.

And that's what we keep, we have to get back to, and that's how archeology, you start to put it in its cultural context because the Bible was ing in a cultural context. And to understand it better, we need archeology. Alright. I, I just loved that they had a view back then that the body, the flesh was evil.

The flesh with sin. We re Paul using that terminology over and over and over. So you die, your flesh decays. It's not, I mean, go back to Ezekiel and the valley of dry bones. The bones can be resurrected, but the flesh is [00:22:00] of no use because it's sinful. But Jesus is resurrected in his flesh. A resurrection body.

Yes. But it's still a bodily resurrection, and that's very profound. It is a proclamation of the sinlessness of Jesus in that early church, and I just love that. Okay, let's shift to geography. All right, Dr. John Monson, I have your maps here. Which one do you want me to put up? And uh, what are you gonna teach us about Bible understanding by looking at the maps.

Well, let's, uh, piggyback on, on Steve's comment here too, that, you know, you hear people say you are what you eat, and in as one level you are where you live as well. But in the ancient near Eastern world, your place of origin is very, very important and your kin is hugely important as well. And so in the afterlife, particularly in the Old Testament, you're [00:23:00] cared about in death as well.

Remember, Nabo Vineyard. Where you know his tomb is stolen. I mean, they're stealing his land, but it's also probably his tomb because his property there. So you have people caring for you in the afterlife as well. And so there's a continuity there of community, continuity of community. It's not individualistic like we have today.

So con situation, food supply, kin. It carries with you into the afterlife and you go and venerate your people who have died and gone before you. You go and venerate, you open up the tomb when the next person dies, and then you throw into the repository and then come back the next time. So it's, it's a beautiful thing because there's continuity right through.

So geography gives us a lot of continuity as well. And for me, my discipline, I mean, I like to go deeply in some of these things. And I also just enjoy the landscape. So I'm up about a lot and I view my area of historical geography to kind of be pulling all these disciplines together. So we need to go the distance with languages, and we need to go the [00:24:00] distance with archeology and do a lot of it, but it's putting it together into a holistic understanding of what went down, not just politically, but culturally.

So it's a, it's kind of a blend. So, side note, side note, side note. Where'd you get your PhD? Uh, Harvard And what's your PhD in? It's, well, it's kind of in the Swiss Army knife of ancient near Eastern studies. 'cause I went the distance on each of these things. Technically it's ancient near Eastern languages and biblical archeology and, uh, but did a lot of other things there.

Alright, now with that, let's get to the map. Right. Oopsie, let's go. So, um, how far can we zoom in? Can we zoom in just a lit, zoom in as much, uh, a tiny bit more, just tiny bit more. Show me the center of what you want. Okay. That's circle where? That's good right here. So let's just think about it for a minute.

If you are invading from the north, as we learned yesterday, if you've got an action hero coming down mm-hmm. You're gonna come down and do you try to avoid hills? Do you try to avoid valleys? You wanna take the easiest route, don't you? [00:25:00] Unless you're on the treadmill. But so you come in from the north. And you avoid the swamps and you avoid the canyons, pushes you down to the Sea of Galilee.

You come around on the international highway here, you come in between, you cross at a famous place called Megiddo and you go down. That's an international route. So it's one of the main invasion routes through the country, so it's very interesting. Anybody heard of Armageddon before? Yes. Okay. Where is Armageddon?

It's on the main pass. I'll put it right here. There are three passes. It's right through the strategic crossroads of the ancient Near East and in Hebrew it's Har Megiddo r McDon. So there it is. I was there once with my father way back in the day. A bus pulled up. Kid you not, he was going on about archeology and various things with students and a bus pulled up back in the day.

And the license plate, I kid you not, was 6 6 6 dash 6 6 6. Can't make that up. [00:26:00] So that's our begin. But we're talking about Galilee here. So now Jesus grew up in Galilee and he based his ministry later in Capernaum, but he was in Nazareth. And so if you think of Nazareth here, you've got the alternate roots.

Jesus could see much of biblical history from Nazareth, and yet as George Adam Smith, the great historical geography, says he didn't follow. Ambition didn't follow the ways of the world, and yet the ways of the world and the international roots were as available to him as any of the big bad men and women of history rushing through here onto greater things.

So he was unsoiled by that, but he saw it all with a panoramic view. But he can also see the biblical stories of faith. He could see Mount Carmel. What happened to Mount Carmel? Elijah narrative. He could see that he could see the healings at name. He could see the failures of Ahab and Jezebel [00:27:00] down here.

And guess what? He probably worked in a little town called Sephoras that's not that far away. He went from Nazareth to Sephoras. Mark's eyes are a lot better than mine. Um, and so he went through this area that we like to call sort of Galilee of the nation. On his way to se forests. 'cause they were building a big, big city there.

Okay. And he probably went back and forth. And you know what's right on the way to se forests? A small little walk to se forests from Galilee and from, uh, Nazareth is a little town called Gaff Heifer. Anybody heard of Gaff? Heifer? Mm-hmm. The home of Jonah. Jonah, does Jesus refer to Jonah once in a while?

Mm-hmm. Three days. Belly of the fish. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Did Jonah try to mm-hmm. Run away from saving the Assyrians. Yes. What did Jesus do? He went right to the heart of it. He didn't run, he didn't take a boat out of, out of anywhere. He, he didn't run. So Jesus comes up probably to pho and gath.

Heifer is right [00:28:00] there. Now, let's layer this for a little bit. Think. Think about this. Let's put it up just a little bit here. Think about this. Jesus grows up able to see all of. And you know what else he sees? This is the major invasion route, and I'm gonna be really nasty with the map here. But what, and Joshua came up and took this territory back in the day, but what do we read in Isaiah seven and Isaiah nine?

What do we read at Christmas? The people walking have, okay, we can take that at a theological level, we can take it at an archeological level and we can. Draw on both of these incredible disciplines and put it together with a geographical framework. We can go below the crust and provide, sorry, mark, I just ruined your diagram.

No, no, no. But we can go below the crust and we can say, these are some of the fundamental things going on. So you read people Walking, darkness. We've seen a great light. And Galilee of the Nations land of Naftali. Okay, this is what the Assyrians did to it. Lawson, you should do [00:29:00] this. But that's it. G Heifer, Jonah.

Jesus Boom. A a geographical glue, Galilee obliterated by the Assyrians. That helps us understand why Jonah wanted to get out of the way. I mean, get away and not help these Assyrians helps us understand. Elijah helps us understand the connection between the Venetians here and Israel, but Galilee was obliterated.

People walk in darkness, have seen a great light, and in our tradition. Of course. Who is that? Great light, the light of the world. Let's frame it within the gospel of John. Let's frame it within Isaiah. So I'm going on too long. Mark. We have an agreement. He will do an intervention whenever needed. Um, and Craig and, uh, my wife who have also had to do some, no, this is, this is wonderful because you're beginning to, to enlighten and I can already sense people are realizing.

Okay. I can see how understanding the geography really does help us understand the scripture more. So I'm coming back to you in a minute. Minute. No worries. Ortiz, I'm [00:30:00] coming back to you, but Lawson, now that you've had a chance to catch your breath, yes. Um, I want you to just grab one of those illustrations.

It doesn't need to be map oriented. It can be whatever is, is in your brain, but one of those things that your work in Aerology or in the other disciplines you've done has helped illuminate a passage of scripture to you that that would be instructive to us in, in edifying ways. Yeah. Well, I, I think I'm just going to piggyback if I might, uh, here, because, uh, it, it.

Shifting gears here slightly. Um, what we know about, uh, this region, uh, of Galilee, uh, from, uh, the invasion of the Assyrians, um, uh, we realize that there is a, uh, largely depopulating. Process that takes place there. There are tortures, there are all kinds of systematic, uh, executions, uh, in the region.

[00:31:00] There's also a very significant deportation that takes place from this region. And in fact, we have a, an Assyrian text of Tego Lath Lee iii that, uh, details, uh uh, the itinerary. Of some of the towns. Now, unfortunately, it's fragmentary, so we don't have every town listed. But as you go through that itinerary, uh, you not only have the town listed, but how many are deported from that town?

And then they have a subtotal of, of it. And, and we might add for everybody who, who's not so Conversant, who is Tick Lath pleaser that you're talking about. Yeah. Tick Lath Pleaser. The third was, um, actually I love the, the, the name Tig Lath Pleaser. I've always wanted to name one of my cats, tick Lath Pleaser.

But my, my, my children have always, uh, gotten to name it. You know, names like Fluffy or, you know, smokey. Okay. Snow Accounting for Taste. So one day, one day I'll, I'll have my, you'll [00:32:00] have hat take life. Believe the fourth. Yeah. He's the, he's a king of Assyria. Who, uh, who, who came on the throne. He was, um, uh, a very aggressive and, um, successfully aggressive king in conquering a very large part of, uh, the ancient near East.

So that's who we're talking about. And he, uh, involved himself in this region. Uh, and there are a lot of places actually in, uh, Kings and, and elsewhere, Isaiah and things like that where, uh, he comes into play with this. So when it says that, uh, uh, this region, um, is in darkness, I mean the, the reason for it is because of Tela Policer.

Uh, I might quickly add not only are, can we see this deportation, but the Bible records where the, the Israelites, Northern Kingdom Israelites are deported [00:33:00] to. Um, and we know those locations we can actually track with the Syrian documentation. Clay tablets and, and other, uh, materials that, um, give us details about, uh, those people.

And we have, uh, contracts and other kinds of materials that allow us through the personal names to trace. Uh, the Israelites in exile, uh, in those locations. So the Israelite tribes, uh, first of all, they weren't 10, uh, so they weren't 10 lost tribes. Uh, second, the Assyrians didn't allow tribal, uh, things to stay intact.

Uh, and so they weren't tribal. And, um, and let's see. Not 10, not lost. And, um, oh, and of course they knew where they were and the Syrians knew where they were. And we know where they were. So the myth of the 10 lost tribes is kind of, yeah. Okay. [00:34:00] That, um, which, which brings up two things that I think are kind of fascinating.

Um, and, and you can comment on 'em and, and say that I'm an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about. And then leave, or you can, uh, uh, just, uh, elucidate further. Um, no. Um, one is if you go into the, the British Museum, uh, they, um, either rescued or stole depending upon who you talk to, both a number of the release because they did a lot of this early archeology work, uh, in the Assyrian Empire Archeology history.

Yes. And, and they show. Is it taketh police or the third, or is it a different one? Who They've got they, they've got the guy, the, the king of Assyria and, and he's got the heads. He's sitting there having dinner. Mm-hmm. With the entourage, bringing it as he sits on his throne in his garden. And from the trees are the decapitated heads.

Of [00:35:00] his enemies that he's hanging from the tree branches while they're bringing him his food. And what I find especially funny about it is they're not only bringing his food from through under the decapitated heads hanging off the trees, but they have people waving to keep the flies off the food.

Because you know, if he's got decapitated heads, he's gonna have flies buzzing around a bit. That's, that's the savagery. That's, yes, that's part of the savagery. Um, this is, uh, Asher on, or That's Asher Bal. Asher Bal. That's who it was. Uh, the last great king of Assyria. Uh, the reliefs. Uh, there there're extensive reliefs in the British Museum of this particular king.

Um, and so that's one of the, one of the orthos stats. Yeah. Can I object a really quick thing? Sure. The campaigns that you described are attested in the archeological record? Oh, yeah. The campaigns are attested in the archeological record. So we've got a geographical framework, a textural reality, and an archeological [00:36:00] evidence.

And they all converge together. Yes. But I just wanted to say, uh, embarrass my dear uh, colleague when he goes to the British Museum. You know, we mere mortals, we walk around in ooh and ah, and show our relatives what's going on. This man is behind the scenes pouring over tablets and documents, you know, right inside, uh, the museum and his colleagues who are here today do the same thing.

It's, it's in great that, that's a little bit of hyperbole. I grew in the Middle East hyperbole. That's, we use it, but it's not hyperbole when it comes to this one particular British scholar that I, um, had, uh, uh. Relationship with, um, WG Lampert, uh, very much bored over, uh, every week he was there, uh, in the British Museum of working.

Well, it's, it's amazing. The other thing that I find interesting, and Steve, I don't know where you want to pick in on this 'cause I have another question for you, but, but, uh, Steve and I were talking Wednesday with Bill Edwin, uh, UCL [00:37:00] Aist. Would we call him Grapher? Oh, he is, yeah. Um. Steve, uh, uh, he was talking about how some of the Hebrew spelling in the archeological fines, the seals and all indicate that some of the northern tribes of Israel, um, became, let's see what we would call them, illegal aliens.

Um, uh, we, they, they, they went south. Mm-hmm. And, uh, were accepted in, I might add and, uh, uh, actually incorporated into Judah, um, the, the lower country. But they were refugees who, who were on the move and went down to Judea. And so some of them survived through that as well. But Steve, I want you to tell everybody about your main dig that you've spent most of your professional life on.

Um, the LCA, one of our big projects is er, and er was. Guarded the pass up to [00:38:00] Jerusalem. And even today when you go to the Tel Aviv airport, Urian, you have to go past Gur. And so throughout history, even Napoleon had a conquer gur, or at least the region where G is. So that's when, um, go ahead. David and Solomon, the united monarchy, they fortified desert.

What are the three sites? Hot sour up in the north. I was hoping you'd keep that map there. Hot sour. And then the second one, Guido, because it controlled the Island Valley and then Deserter, which doesn't fit, but it's on the coast and it guards the pass up to the new, um, kingdom of, of Jerusalem. And so it's an important site and sure enough, uh, one of the things archeologists like, we like destructions, so we do like the Assyrians because we date these destructions to a particular rain in Assyria.

'cause they had all the. All the writing and documentation, and it helps us define our material culture. So, [00:39:00] um, we like the Assyrians, they were evil, which is why I think you should name your cats Africa Assyrian. Uh, Kings, but that's another story. I, I, I, some, some of them were evil, but, uh, from a Juda perspective, they were No, no, I know.

Um, and I think you mean some of his cats were evil? Yeah, please. Well, TLA Lee actually did, uh, a, uh, capture gazer. And, um, and this is recorded not in his anals, which is interesting, uh, but in a relief. Um, and it has a, a label, uh, an epigraph that identifies gizzard. Yeah. Uh, so we know he conquered it based on that, uh, uh, and picture depiction and the, the alga excavation.

We've uncovered this destruction throughout the site so we can coordinate. The bill protects. The Assyrian texts. Right. And then the archeology on the ground [00:40:00] and the location that is just all roads lead there. Right. Okay. So, um, we've got a little bit of time. We've got about 15 minutes left and what I'd like to do with three guests, uh, partial out this time, maybe five minutes a piece, but I'd love to hear you comment.

Each of you are accomplished academics in your field. Uh, fields a plural for some of you, for actually for all of you, each of you very accomplished academics and yet very devout people of faith who read and study and appreciate the Bible as the word of God. And a lot of people who venture into academia.

Find it challenging, and this is not just true of biblical academia. This is true of law, it's true of medicine, it's true of, of areas of academic study that enrich our brain in some deep dive way. [00:41:00] We often find that, that folks find it challenging to embrace a faith that they held before they did the deep dive because, uh, I've got a theory.

As to why that's true, but, but I would love to hear from each of you how it is that you're diving into academia. Not only walks hand in hand with your faith, but maybe even fuels your, and feeds your faith. So, um, who wants to go first, I guess. Lawson, you're the oldest? No, I'm the younger. Oh, that's his last name.

Lawson Younger. My father was a elder in the church, so he was elder younger. And, uh, we have, uh, quite a number of elder Jo younger jokes that, uh, my wife doesn't like me. I'll stop, I'll stop. Um, no, I won't. I'll, I'll just say my favorite verse in the Bible in the King James translation is The elder shall serve the younger.

So it, it, [00:42:00] it's especially, uh, helpful in churches that have elders. Okay. Alright. Alright. So I can invoke, uh, service. Good. Um, it, it, it's a good question. I mean, um, and it, it really has, uh, multiple answers because I don't, uh, I think, uh, the first thing and most important thing is just, uh, as a, uh, Christian, um, the word of God, the, the, the Bible.

Uh, is our bread, it's, it's our daily bread. It's our, it's our life. Um, and it's, um, important that we continue to read that and, uh, and to read all of it. Um, and not just our favorite little places, which is so common. And, uh, because it's in that, that I think we, we grow, um, in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

And, um, and we walk, walk with the Lord. Now, [00:43:00] everyone in this room, um, is going to understand what I say with this. Um, it doesn't matter how much you know the Bible, it doesn't matter how much, uh, uh, you know, what is the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do. Uh, we have sinful natures and we often choose the wrong thing to do.

Uh, I have spoken, uh, poorly to my wife. On many, many occasions, not because I don't, not because I don't love her, but because I just, uh, am a sinful creature. And sometimes that happens. Um, and so it's important, uh, as a Christian to acknowledge when we, when we do that, and, uh, and to, uh, seek the Lord's forgiveness and to.

To again, walk with him. Um, uh, so that, that's there. There's no, there's no secret to staying faithful, I don't think, beyond doing what every [00:44:00] Christian ought to do and, uh, to be salt and light. All right? Um, as we continue to get younger and younger. Um, Steve, we'll go to you next. I think, uh, don't, don't you have a year on Monson, or is he older than you?

I'm 62. How old are you? I'm I'm 63. Oh, Monson, you're next. But I act like a 19-year-old. Yeah. 12-year-old. Yes. Alright. Well, I, I would frame it in, in a broader context and say that, uh, it doesn't matter what your faith tradition or if you have no faith, um, you know, we read that our hearts are empty, Augustine, until they find their fullness in thee.

And something happens for some people and not others, and we have a few pillars that come at different times to support us. One of those is, is our tradition. I mean, I grew up in a Christian home. That would be a reason not to be a Christian, but it would be a reason to be a Christian. I could react or I could, you know, find out, find it out for myself.

We have [00:45:00] tradition. And we also have the biblical text that, that, that speaks to us. And it's not like Homer. It de it doesn't, it's not a great story. Only it demands something of us and therefore we have an approach avoidance with it. It's like I don't, I won't be told what to do. You like to be told what to do and I wouldn't be told that I'm a sinner.

Well, no matter what your tradition, if you don't see that you are a depraved human being, then I would just argue a little bit delusional because we're all, we all are damaged goods. By our experience or just our genetics, or I would go all the way back to Adam. So there's that, and then there's the empirical side.

There's the, the mental side is you just put one and one together. And dear friend Mark has, has really impacted my faith quite a bit because he's not ashamed of the gospel, but he is not ashamed to go the distance with questioning. And he's pulled me back from the edge a number of times in a beautiful way because I'm like, you know what?

That makes sense. I never thought of that. And so, and these dear colleagues as well, um, are, are that way with me. And so in the end of the day, you, you put it together [00:46:00] empirically and you could say, so what's, what's the best option here? Now, I don't go with apologetics as much. I don't go with proof as much because you can deconstruct proof as well.

I go with probability and as I go through the biblical record from Genesis right on through to Jesus, I see increasing probability. And in just intellectually until it reaches critical mass. And it's like, wow, okay, how can I not believe this empirically? This is the most likely reality. So there's the intellectual, there's the tradition, there's the personal experience, and there's the work of the Holy Spirit.

I mean, God is real and God intervenes in lives. And I could tell you many stories of those interventions among others and among myself. So you turn to the academic world, I suppose for, for me, you know, growing up in Jerusalem with. With Israelis and Palestinians speaking, Hebrew and Arabic. I mean, we all knew who the other person was.

So I'm a Christian. Okay, fine. You know, wait, you're not Jewish, you're not Arab. No. You know, look, my hair or no hair, but in the end of the day, it, it, [00:47:00] it, it, all of this was very real to me because it was just coming at me every single day. And yet I also grew up with these scholars. Some of the great names we've been talking about, um, even greater than the guests here, probably some of the, oh, the great patriarchs and matriarchs of.

All of our disciplines and I, they were like aunts and uncles to me growing up. And you know what? They were wonderful people, whether they were in the faith or not. So it's a struggle, but for me, the academic journey was always a joy of the journey. And my friend Adam Lio has taught me so much about just, and my former student, but he surpassed me by many metrics.

But you know, the quest for knowledge is great, it's beautiful, but it also agitates the soul. And there's, you know, we all have something missing in here and we're looking for it. In the academic pursuit, we have the privilege of pursuing that to follow our intellectual interests, but to have the Lord speak through those interests as well.

So then I met wonderful Christian academics as well, who are living the faith and not ashamed of the gospel. It [00:48:00] doesn't mean that people are not in the faith or bad scholars. I mean, there's no bifurcation there. But it's a matter of these, these, these, these lives committed to knowing the truth and not being scared of where it takes them.

And sometimes it has to bring us back from the edge. But for me, I had it sort of discounted information in there so that when I went to, you know, a rigorous doctoral program, you know, I have some colleagues, I won't name them, but a number of colleagues who are way outside of the Christian orbit and the Christian faith, because the intellectual pursuit led them to dangerous waters and they just couldn't handle it.

You put your beach towel down on the beach, maybe you've all done this and you swim out. You're having the best time. The tide takes you over there. And you look back at your towel and you say, I'm having more fun with my friends over here. I don't need to go back to my towel. Well, we here, we all rigorously swim back to the towel and, you know, trust god to be, to be our anchor doesn't make us any better than anybody else.

But it's a wonderful, wonderful journey. And I didn't have that faith crisis at [00:49:00] Harvard 'cause I had great professors who were willing to talk about the sermon with me and analyze the text. They weren't, they weren't condescending to me, but I also had discounted information from many, many years. Of seeing the archeological problems, the textural problems, and uh, you know, so that's, that's my story and I'm, it's great.

Thank, we have to be full, full of gratitude. All of us are so full of gratitude to have the chance to do what we do. That's wonderful. Alright, Steve, that's a good metaphor. Um, as the baby on this platform, uh, go a different perspective, uh, yes, you have this view that you go into the academy, you're gonna lose your faith.

Um, there are. You go into business, you're gonna see there's people of faith and people not of faith lawyers. There's one or two of faith and the rest don't have faith. It's, it's doesn't matter. The, the university is not different now, but there is a tendency for those who start studying the Bible academically, the majority of them do lose their faith.

A lot of our, [00:50:00] our colleagues, I know that's the question. You're, you're at Mark and how, how did you, how do we keep our faith? Or how do, how do we. Study God's word. Uh, and it's hard. I teach my students, they go, you're taking apart God's word, but I'm assuming you're gonna be able to put it back together.

And there's this tension of you taking apart because you realize you need the ology to help understand some of the parts. You need the geography. They're assuming this. You need, uh, archeology in the historical context. And it's the individual. If they're not able to put, put it back together, I'll tell students, this isn't for you.

Um, and, uh, scholars who are not of faith, as long as you're a good scholar and you control the discipline, there's respect there. Or there should be respect, uh, my projects. Um, yeah, I try to have my students, I try to have help other evangelical, um, budding scholars, but I'll take the best. Um, I, I, I work, most of mine are, [00:51:00] are Israelis or Jewish scholars, but I want those who know how to do archeology.

Just like if you go to the doctor, you don't say, are you a Christian? You want the best heart surgeon who's gonna operate on you. And the same thing in the academic world. Uh, look, the goal for us is it's not our scholarship that influences people in terms of the gospel. It's how we live our life. Mm-hmm.

And so it's not because Lawson's one of the top of Serologists that gets him in the door, but it's the way he treats his colleagues. It's the way he treats his wife. It's the way he treats people. Does he live Christlike? And that's the issue we have are reliving Christlike. In our disciplines, but also, are we the best at what we do?

Alright, so I want to end this, um, with, uh, going back to the map. Take, take blue. Jesus goes to Jerusalem on his [00:52:00] last fateful journey, and we don't have the map with enough, uh, room right now to, to, this is, let's see, we start about right here. And so this is what's showing on the screen down through, let's get through Jerusalem.

Let's get Jerusalem on there. Alright, John, you were pointing out, you and Steve were pointing out to me yesterday that Jesus comes down from Galilee and he follows this road. And as he follows this road, he's gonna wind up seeing Nebo over here. Mount Nebo. Of course, I'll circle it for you. Uh, Mount Nebo.

A tall mountain with a ridge where Moses had to stop because of Moses's sin. Moses was not allowed to descend into the RIF Valley, across the Jordan River, to the Jericho Oasis and into the Holy Land. Um, that [00:53:00] was east of the Jordan, um, uh, west of the Jordan, excuse me. Um, so Moses is stuck. On Mount Nebo.

He can visually see all of this a lot. Jesus can visually see Nebo the mountain of Moses as Jesus is coming down to make his final entry and his final cross of the Jordan River. Talk about that. You've got two minutes. He loves to torture me. No. Thank you. Um, think of Jesus. Can you hear me all right? Yeah.

Think of Jesus coming down and, you know, John was baptized. Uh, people are coming and going. Sometimes he went back through the north, but Jesus can see just as by the way, the Dead Sea Scrolls community can see at Kuran, they could see Mount Ebo towering above where Moses gave what due Tonomy, the second law.[00:54:00]

And just like Peter in first and second, Peter says. You know, we witnessed these things. Moses, later, Peter, channels Moses, because he says, we witnessed these things. He gives his final word. Now Bethel is right up here. Moses can see, and they had spies. We know that. He could see the fate of Abraham lived out.

He could Jacob's ladder. It wasn't ladder, it was staircase, but he could see Jacob's ladder up there. He could see the Judean wilderness out here. Where much history later will take place. And he can only imagine what's going to go, go down, what's going to happen. And he can look up just to the back of the Mount of Olives and see the edge of Jerusalem.

So the line of sight is incredible. We read about this before there was, you know, pollution, other things. He can see the whole land, the promised land. And what does he do? He says, here's the manual for how you should live in the land. And what's the first thing? Love the Lord your God. Basically with your everything.

Don't love your career. Don't love you, [00:55:00] know your success. You know, don't go and, and, and become a pagan. You're no better than the pagans, but let God make you something different. He gives him the last word. Now, who is out in this wilderness, right below where Moses is speaking. Isaiah 40, make the crooked straight, the high low.

All that comforting my people, right? People walking in darkness. We talked about a minute ago. Who else is out here? John the Baptist is out here seeing the true faith. They can see Nebo, the author, even of Isaiah, knows where Nebo is, knows where. Peace guys over here. And then let's, where did Jesus have suffer the temptations in the wilderness?

It's the same wilderness. It's the same wilderness, and you access it on the road, the Roman road to Jerusalem. Some of you have been there. So think about Jesus. He encounters the rich ruler who walks away. Right near Jericho and says, I can do all that, but I can't do this. I can't follow you. Okay? He's looking up [00:56:00] at Moses that he scrolls, looking up at Moses, all these people.

Moses is geographically governing what's going on in a sense, and he's texturally theologically and lifestyle governing what's going on. Jesus says, don't take up a sword. Take up your cross and follow me. Well, he starts losing people when he does that. You know where Jesus has to go? This is, you can't make this up.

And again, we do geography, we do texts. He walks right by Jericho, one of the oldest cities on earth where the Neolithic revolution part partly took place where they started hunting, not hunting, gathering, but settling in. He walks by, and that's the, that is where the other Joshua, Joshua Yeshua, salvation, that's where the other Joshua came and didn't raise a sword, but in faith, went around the city and the walls came.

Tumbling down. Jesus knows his namesake story right there. He knows that Moses is looking down on him, so to speak. He's seen John the Baptist, who [00:57:00] is beheaded right here at MCC Carus, okay? He turns to Jerusalem, and you know what else he has to walk by? He has to walk by the opulent palace of here, Herod The Great.

The whole New Testament is framed between the foil of Herod and the foil of Jesus. Jesus takes the route of dying for. The world. Herod takes the route of killing other people on his death day so that people will mourn his death and Herod degrade rots from the inside, not so great. Jesus and Herod are foils, but where I'm going with that, you gotta shut me down.

30 seconds, okay? Is he comes up to Jerusalem and Jesus is channeling. Moses is not going. The Heron Way is channeling Joshua, and he makes his way up to die on a cross in Jerusalem. And it's unbelievable. It is believable that he brings all of this to himself. I like to joke that Jesus is the one person in human history who could get away with [00:58:00] be being a narcissist and have it count and have it be for real.

And he's not a narcissist, but all roads lead to him and he gives his life there in the shadow of Moses, where all these biblical stories converge around geography, illuminated by text and by archeology. And. Thanks be to God that we have such people working on these things and the opportunity to study such things, uh, in all these creative ways.

Um, you guys have gotten to hear from three of the world's greatest in their areas. Would you thank them?

Let me say a word of blessing and then, uh, uh, I'll see you next week. Um, so, uh, Lord, in the name of Jesus, we ask you to bless those who are hearing, uh, both on the internet and, and present in, in class. We ask your blessings on these three gentlemen and their families, and thank you for them and the way you use them to help us understand better your word.

We pray that your word will continue to stir and convict us [00:59:00] through your Holy Spirit, uh, so that we made more. Faithfully find and follow you, and that is our prayer as we go into this week. In Jesus name, amen.