Special Event – Conversation with Dr. Ben Witherington and Dr. Steve Walton: Mark Lanier, 04/19/26

SE 059_Conv w Witherington Walton_PODCAST_041926
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[00:00:00] I want you to meet these two gentlemen that we've got today. Uh, they've spent their lives doing something a bit unusual. Uh, they've actually dedicated themselves to understanding what these texts that we love so much. What they mean and, uh, between them, I suspect they've forgotten more about New Testament than most of us have ever known about the New Testament.

Uh, but I don't wanna just talk to 'em about the books they've written or the books they're writing. Uh, and I don't want to give you their long cvs. You can Google 'em and say, wow, I just heard them in class. Instead, I have written a one sentence introduction. For each. Ben Witherington [00:01:00] teaches at Asbury Seminary in Kentucky.

He's written a commentary on every book in the New Testament, and he's written a boatload. More than that, I think he is certainly America's most prolific New Testament scholar.

Now Steve Walton is here from England. He is one of the world's leading experts on the Book of Acts. There's a word Bible commentary series, and it's a good in depth, careful series. I have a volume on acts written by Steve. It's about three to three and a half inches thick, and it's only the first nine chapters of acts.[00:02:00]

He's got two more volumes that'll be coming out. He's been in England where he is helping shape a generation of scholars, and so I wanna welcome them both. Would you join me in welcoming them?

I have divided this interview into three different parts. The first part is kind of the personal part, their personal story. So I've got a question for both of you. Ben, I'll start with you 'cause you're immediately at my right. Tell us where you grew up, what your family was like. Were you the kid, uh, who was gonna end up teaching New Testament at a Methodist seminary?

And would your childhood self be surprised to see you here? Well, I was born at a very early age. Um, my, my mother said, my first two words were John Wesley. I kind of doubt that, [00:03:00] you know, I have, I have questions about that. But I am a, a kid who grew up entirely in the church. My whole family was Christian.

All my relatives were Christian. You know, the church was like a second home that I grew up in. Did I have any idea that I would end up being a New Testament scholar? Maybe there were some clues along the way. I have been told that even when I was six and seven years old. When we go to worship, I would take notes and then I would make suggestions to the pastor about his next sermon.

True story. And that's why Pastor Jarrett leaned over to me last night and said, uh, I'm a little bit worried about what he is gonna say about my sermon. Uh, no, he, he didn't. So, you know, I, the truth, the truth is that, uh, there really hasn't ever been a point in my life when I wasn't. Um, a church mouse in various ways.

[00:04:00] And you know what did happen to me because of the crisis in the country with the Vietnam War and all of that sort of stuff is there comes a point in time where even if you've been raised in the church, and even if you haven't objected to the Bible. Or Jesus, you have to own the faith for yourself. You have to embrace it for yourself as an adult person.

And, and that happened to me when I was at Carolina, um, and go Guitar Hills. And, and the thing is about that, that I had maybe the best Bible teacher on the whole planet at that point in time in Dr. Bernard Boyd. Who was the James? A great professor of biblical studies at UNC Chapel Hill and over 5,000, yes, 5,000 of us.

Between 1950 and 1975. Went into some kind of ministry or went further in seminary or became teachers. You become [00:05:00] what you admire. Bernard Boyd was the person I admired the most. And wanted to be like, and that's the story. Hmm. Alright. We may come back to the Mount Olivette pickle company in a minute, but, which is, uh, my relatives.

His relatives. Um, uh, but I, I want to go to Steve first. Steve, same type question. Uh, for you. Uh, tell us where you grew up, what your family was like. Now you come from an Anglican tradition. Mm-hmm. So we got an Anglican tradition, we got the Methodist tradition. And I claim three different strands. 'cause I'm, I'm ambidextrous, so, uh, I, I'll claim a Baptist tradition, but a Church of Christ tradition, which came out of the Presbyterian tradition.

So I'm, I'm all over the map, but would you, uh, uh, Steve, tell us about your growing up, what your family was like. Uh, were you the kid who was gonna grow up and write the seminal work on acts? [00:06:00] Uh, uh, tell us about it. Yeah, I, I grew up in a coal mining village in Yorkshire, in the north of England. Um, dad was, the post office was the postmaster who ran the post office.

Um, and he'd met my mother when they'd been working for our equivalent of the IRS after he came back from the second World War. Um, and, uh, I'm the oldest of three. And I'm married to somebody who's the youngest of three and apparently oldest marrying youngest works well. That's, that's been our experience for 42 years.

Um, the, um, dad died when he was 47 years old and I was 10, and that was a key moment in my life, um, because classic Anglican really, I then had confirmation preparation over the next year. And looking back at it, I would say that's when I came to a personal faith. [00:07:00] Um, so Anglicanism actually worked for me, which it doesn't always.

Um, and by the time I was 12, I had a sense that God was calling me to be ordained of me, a pastor. Um, so I went to university, did a maths degree, um, all the time thinking, well, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? And I went to. Uh, went through the Anglican selection process for oration while I was doing my maths degree, and then went on and studied at Cambridge.

If you'd asked me when I was 12, you're a soft talker. I'm moving your mic up. Okay. So I can hear you better. If, if you'd asked me when I was 12, that didn't help, now I'm moving it to the center. If you'd asked me when I was 12, is that any better? That's much better. Okay. If you'd asked me when I was 12, um, what would I be doing in the future?

I'm not sure I'd have had a good answer for you. Um, [00:08:00] and if you'd asked me earlier at university, I, I might have thought I'd do a PhD in mathematics and end up in, in university working in mathematics, but it was. It, it was while I was at university and I found people saying to me, have you considered being ordained?

And when I went home in the summer vacation, at the end of my first year at university, I went and saw my vicar and uh, I said, I'm wondering if God's calling me to be ordained. And he said, oh, you've realized, wow. And he'd seen it long before I had, which was so interesting. Hmm. So I, I'd got this strong sense that God was calling me to be ordained, but being ordained in the Church of England is a very broad area.

You can end up in hospital or school chaplaincy, working a college, teaching university, as well as be a parish minister. Um, and it was, it was really while I was at [00:09:00] university and one of my teachers called Dick France, who was a superb New Testament scholar. Um, was teaching me and he said to me one day, Steve, have you ever thought about doing a PhD?

And that was what then opened the door to, to becoming a New Testament scholar. Alright. I'm, I'm gonna get into this more because I, I, I have more, um, questions in this regard, but, but let me, let me ask you this and I'll start with you on this one, Ben. Uh, what's something about being a New Testament scholar that people don't understand?

Maybe the, the part that nobody sees. In order to be a good New Testament scholar, you have to be able to deal with languages, history, theology, ethics, and literature. [00:10:00] As it happened for me at the University of North Carolina, I was an English major, but I took all those other things not knowing I was preparing to be a New Testament scholar.

I took classical Greek as well as New Testament Greek. At Carolina, I'd already had three years of Latin. What I discovered, I mean for me, there was a big oh aha moment is okay. This is why God has had me take all these different subjects because frankly, you need to know 'em all. To know the New Testament and really understand it in its contexts.

Interesting. Um, uh, Steve, what about you? What would you say is something about being a New Testament scholar that people may not readily understand or, or part of it that nobody really sees? We don't have the original author's copies of the New Testament. What we have are copies of copies of copies and so on.

And of course, before the invention of printing. They're all hand copied. [00:11:00] Now, I dunno what you are like, but when I copy things by hand, I make mistakes. And the scribes who copied the New Testament did make mistakes. So what we call the manuscripts of the New Testament, um, of which we got best part of 5,000 in Greek, um, are, uh, have, have differences in them.

Now, let me say straight away, that no significant. Christian doctrine that we believe hinges on one of these differences. But my book of Acts that I work on, um, has two major differences in manuscripts, and one is about six and a half percent longer than the other. And there are places where titles of Jesus in the shorter one are the Lord or the Lord Jesus.

And it's the Lord Jesus Christ. In, in the longer one, or there are places where, um, a [00:12:00] character enters a story and in the shorter version they just appear. But in the, in the longer version, it's been filled in and explained. So I constantly face the question, which was what Luke wrote. And digging away at those manuscripts I think is something.

That's, that's not appreciated. We have, um, a modern edited text and at the bottom of the page in this text is a whole lot of stuff here. Can, can I put it up here for people to see? Sure. Yeah. So at the bottom of the page, you can see a whole lot of stuff. So there's the main text up there. Here, let's get one that, that people would readily identify.

Acts, uh, two sure. Or, but well give us one where the Western text adds something. What should I look up? Um, acts 19. Acts 19. Um, it's 19. Nine verse nine. Yeah. Okay. Now, so we're, [00:13:00] we're in acts? Yeah. Okay. The acts of the Apostles Chapter 19 class. We go to verse nine. Yeah, let's make it a little bit bigger by your finger.

You can see the word Nu Tyrannus. And in Acts 19, nine, Paul goes and lectures every day in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. Now can you see that little T at the end of Nu with a dot? At the bottom of the page it will tell you. You go down here to verse nine. Yeah. So, and then you keep going. Here we go. Um, and I can't see, I've gotta get the right hype.

Yeah. For my eyes to work. Yeah. Here we go. You see where it says Tinos? Yes, mark. Yeah. That, that says that it was from, um, it, it during a particular time of day, um, from the, um, the, the to, to the 12th [00:14:00] day to case hour. Yeah. So, um, that's a case where the, the longer text tells us it was at a particular time of day that Paul was using the lecture hall of Tyrannus to teach.

Now that may well be a, an accurate memory because that's the hottest time of day. It's siesta time, and that would mean two things. It would mean only Mad Dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun, so nobody would be around. But it would also mean that people could come and hear Paul at that time of day because their stores were closed.

And so on. So that's a case where I think the longer text is preserving an accurate, um, historical memory. But that's the kind of thing that people like Ben and I have to deal with all the time. It reminds me of, of a confession story with two of, of [00:15:00] scholars of your, um, stature. It's embarrassing to tell, and with some scholars out here, it's embarrassing to tell.

But this is my extended family, so they will get a bang out of this maybe. Um, I was at Lipscomb and I was uh, uh, in a fourth year Hebrew reading class, and I was the only student and it was, uh, it was Psalms and so we were translating the Psalms and there was a day where I was really rushed. To prepare for class because I'd been doing some other things and I left myself a couple of hours before Hebrew class to.

To translate and to work through it. Um, and, and I will tell you, my professor, his name was Clyde Miller, but he was Mad Dog Miller to us, if that gives you any semblance of what this would be like. He, he actually, I truly was the only person in the class, the only student, and he still did a seating chart and [00:16:00] expected me to sit in the same seat each day.

Yikes. And so, yes, and so, um, I was having trouble. I don't, I don't remember what, what it was, but it was some verbal construction of a weak, uh, verb in, in Hebrew, and I was having trouble figuring it out, and I, I was running out of time and so I just went, uh, to my, I was using a revised standard version at the time in my, my personal life.

And so I just looked it up and I thought, oh, yeah, I can sort of see how they did that. I mean, I, I got the basic word and yeah, I see that. So I thought I, when I get to that point reading in front of Mad Dog, I just needed to, to, to do it smooth without him asking me how the form was derived. And, uh, so I'm translating it and I'm reading it and translating it, and I'm pretty smooth and he stops me anyway.

And he says, uh, Mr. Lanier, how do you get that meaning from [00:17:00] that word? And so, I'm. Reverse engineering, uh, at the moment. You know, I'm, I'm trying to figure out, well, you know, uh, uh, when you have a weak yod, uh, in, in, in front of this, it, it resolves into that. And, and, and, and he says, no, it doesn't. He says, let me repeat.

How did you get that? So I start backing up trying to explain it. He said, no. He said, I'm gonna ask you again. How did you get that? And I said, well, I'm having trouble understanding how that works here. And he said, but I was not asking you how it works. I asked you how you got it. He said, let me suggest an answer.

You use the revised standard version.

And I said, awesome. I said, yes, that's, that's, that's what I did. But I'm trying to figure out how they got it. He said, look down below at the variant reading. [00:18:00] Because they used a variant reading. I looked down, I said, well, son of a gun. These things down here become really important when you're trying to understand how to translate this.

Yeah, because there are variant readings, and that's why we need brilliant scholars who are also Bible believing scholars. To be doing the kind of work these men are doing and we applaud you for it. Thank you. Alright, let's turn the conversation then to some scripture. Now, here's a chance that most of us never get.

I, I really hope you understand that as much as I miss teaching Romans eight today, verses 22 through 25 or six, I think we would make, um, as much as I hate that, how often does someone get. A, a once in a lifetime chance to Oprah Winfrey, to World Class New Testament scholars. This is just [00:19:00] delightful for me.

So here we go. Um, Steve, you've spent your career in the book of Acts Vex. I wanna ask you a question that many of us may have wondered, but maybe don't have a chance to ask or maybe even feel dumb asking. Is Acts meant to be a model for us or a history for us. In other words, when we read the, the early church did this, are we supposed to do that too?

Hmm, yes and no.

Good answer. Okay. Does that mean yes, we, we do the parts we like and no, we don't do the parts we don't like? Or what does that mean? We, it means we, we listen really carefully to what the text says. Um, let me give you two examples where I think it is a model. Um, one [00:20:00] is, is acts, um, 2 38 and 39, which is. The, the passage that's often cited as to how you become a follower of Jesus, repent and be baptized, and you receive the gift of the ho forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promises to you and your children, and to those that are far off as many as the Lord, our God will call to himself.

Now, I, I actually think it's 2 38 and 39. That's the model. Because the community is there in 39, and when you become a believer, you join a community of followers of Jesus. Um, so, so I think taking 2 38 on its own is a mistake. I had a student, a, a master's level student who wrote a 5,000 word essay for me, and I, I asked him to go away and study the conversion stories in the book of Acts.

And see if those elements were there in the conversion [00:21:00] stories. And the answer is most of them are there most of the time, but not necessarily in the order. They come in 2 38 39. Mm-hmm. So think of the Cornelius story in Acts 10, where Peter speaks the gospel to Cornelius in his household. The spirit falls on them and they're speaking in tongues and prophesying.

And then, um, the Peter says to the Jewish believers who come with him, we better get these guys baptized. So it's not in the same sequence, but the same elements are present. And my student found this pattern right across the book of Acts. So I think that's a program Scholars like to say it's a programmatic text that it's, it's defining something.

The other one is Acts 2 42. Um, and in 2 42 you get these four things that the early church did. [00:22:00] The apostles teaching the fellowship, the breaking of bread and the prayers, and the fellowship doesn't just mean drinking coffee together. They didn't have coffee in those days. Um, but it doesn't just mean that it, it's spelled out in the bit that follows as really sharing their lives and their possessions with those in need.

I had another student wrote an essay for me on that passage and I said to her, look, study the, the book of acts for when we get windows into the life of the early Christian communities. Are we seeing those four elements? And the same sort of thing happened, there's a pattern where sometimes. Um, where most of the time most of them are present, but not necessarily in the same order.

So where you've got that kind of pattern emerging, I'd say acts is [00:23:00] prescriptive. It's telling us what the church ought always to be like, what Christian conversion ought always to be like. But um. Are, are we, are we meant to meet in upper story buildings so people can fall out the window in the middle of the night?

Poor all Utica, which I think is great because Utica who fell out the window that Paul revives, uh, his name in Greek means lucky. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Oh, lucky. Fell out the window dead. But Paul was there. Come here. Lucky. And interestingly, Utica is, is very, very common as a slave name. So are we meant to have slaves?

Well, in North in in the US you decided it wasn't a good idea and just as we in Britain decided it wasn't a good idea and it was, it was the gospel that changed that. [00:24:00] Um, but that there are patterns to follow and there are things where. Luke is saying to us, this is what happened. This is how the, the, the believing, believing community began as a follower of a Jewish prophet Jesus and finished as an international community.

And that's not a repeatable journey 'cause it's a journey that was made in the Book of Acts. But it is saying to us, the believing community is now an international community. Of different kinds of people, of different races, of different nationalities and so on. So, so that's why I am saying yes and no.

That's great. Alright, Ben. Uh, uh, he speaks, uh, as his scholastic, uh, approach and his anglicanism, uh, you come from a Methodist strand, but a, a broad scholastic strand. I will tell you that, uh, uh, while I am [00:25:00] really enjoying working my way through Steve's commentary on acts. Uh, uh, Ben Worthington's commentary on Acts, which came out in 96 is what I consider to be one of the foundational books worth reading on the book of Acts.

It's a, an amazing commentary. Uh, I read it in the nineties when it came out, and it, it helped turn me on to Ben Witherington as a scholar and, and so many. 70 books. Um, uh, but, but comment on that, Ben, from your perspective. One thing I'd like to say to your folks while I'm, while I'm remembering it, is textual criticism as we know it today, is really a modern phenomena of the late 19th and into the 20th and 21st centuries.

And here's what I really wanted to say to you. Define textual criticism. Yes, that's the attempt. To get back fontes to the original form of the text that the [00:26:00] inspired authors wrote. How do we get back to the autograph? Original. Exactly. 'cause we don't have the autographs. We don't have the original texts.

Here's the good news of those 4,500 and some manuscripts, we are closer today. It to the original form of the Greek New Testament and good translations. Then at any point in church history, since about the early Middle Ages, at least God and his providence has led us to do this work to get us closer and closer to the original inspired text, and we are pleased to be servants of that process so that you can have a Bible that you can trust.

And believe is God's word. Amen. Um, uh, yeah. Amen. It's, it's, um, it is a massive undertaking that people still do. And when you see the skeptics and the cynics [00:27:00] who say there are 5,000 or 4,500 manuscripts, how can you even know there are 10,000 variations and blah, blah, blah. Almost all of the variations are spelling.

You know, did Epaphroditus have an extra iota in his name? That's not earth shaking, but that's six of the variants. Um, you know, the, the, the, the substantive differences, uh, uh, uh, word order, um, you know, and, and it makes sense if someone were dictating right now and y'all were all taking it down. So we'd have 500 copies at one time of what I'm reading.

Uh, uh, and I say the word there. Some of you are gonna write T-H-E-R-E, some are gonna write T-H-E-I-R and a few might write THEY apostrophe RE. It's, those are very understandable. Uh, the major variations we're down less than 10, and, and, and scholars have a pretty good handle on those, and your Bible will tell you.

[00:28:00] Uh, the Paree in John eight may not have been in the original or whatever, so you, you get it? Yep. Alright. Um, uh, I want to go back to acts for one more question with you on this, Steve. Uh, and that is, is there something in acts that you think most Christians completely missed? Yes. Acts 2 33 is, is an incredibly significant verse.

Um, people ask the question, how did the early Christians come to worship God, worship Jesus as being the one true God? And I think the answer is the gift of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 33, Peter says to the crown at Pentecost that God has exalted Jesus to his right hand side and given him, given Jesus the Holy Spirit.

And he, Jesus [00:29:00] has poured out what you now see and hear all those phenomena at Pentecost of fire and wind and different languages and so on. Now, just notice the sequence there. Who's pouring out the spirit? Jesus, ask the question In the Old Testament and in the intertestamental writings, who pours out the Holy Spirit and there is one and only one answer, and that is Yahweh, the one true God.

So Jesus is doing something here that only the one true God can do. So this verse is incredibly important in understanding who Jesus is. 'cause it's telling you that if you draw a line and put Creator on one side and creation on the other, Jesus is on the creator side. He pours out the Holy Spirit. Now that's incredibly important because it means that in, in Christology, our understanding of [00:30:00] Jesus, there wasn't a gradual evolution, and people gradually came to see Jesus as God.

There was a big bang at the day of Pentecost that pointed people to who Jesus was, and people began to worship Jesus very early. And that, that verse, I think is, people read it, but just don't notice the sequence necessarily. And that's, that's really important for understanding Jesus. And all of those earliest Christians were Jews.

Yes. Monotheists. Yeah. So the fact that all of a sudden they start worshiping Jesus, this is a big sea change, a big deal. Yeah. I, I, I, um, I'm, I'm just so mad that we don't have four hours for this discussion because there's so much I want to ask about. Um, Ben, you sent me a link a, a few weeks ago, uh, to a lecture you were [00:31:00] giving on, on, on the Jesus as the Son of God and, and the perception in the early church.

Yeah. Uh, uh, it bears on the same high Christology. Is there anything else you'd want to add beyond that? Well, one of the things you may not know. Is that when Jesus was talking about himself, A, he tended to talk in the third person, and B, he called himself the son of man, the son of man. He didn't go around calling himself the son of David.

Other people called him that. He did call himself the son, referring to being the son of God. But the number one with a bullet phrase that he used of himself is Son of man. Why it's not because he's referencing his humanity. It's actually an illusion, as Charlie Mole himself said. It's the son of man referred to in Daniel seven 13 and 14.[00:32:00]

And what do you hear about the son of man in Daniel seven 13 and 14? That God has given him the task of judging the world and that every nation. Every ethnic group, all peoples will come to worship him and serve him. And his kingdom will last forever and ever. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. And, and you have to read the context because before that, in Daniel, there was four beastly kingdoms that Rosen fall fell and Rosen fell, and Rosen fell.

And their leaders were beasts inhumane, and the kingdoms were brutal. But this last kingdom, the kingdom of Jesus Christ that's bringing in, is being brought in by the prince of peace and it's human and humane [00:33:00] because it's intended to set up the salvation of the world. God loves all of us. And would like all of us to be part of his family.

Amen. Well, um, uh, now you see why I really would like this to go four hours. I mean, that's just like one of about 75 questions I have for these guys in this area. Um, uh, uh, Ben, now you've written a commentary, I think at this point on every book in the New Testament. Yep. If I'm not mistaken. Yep. If you could get every Christian in America.

To understand one thing about how to read the New Testament, what would it be?

That's such a loaded question. I, I could give you 15 answers, but, but I'll give you one of my personal favorite ones. Okay. Most of you will know who Tim Tebow is, right? Famous football player. Florida Gator, unfortunately, but ne nevertheless, he couldn't get into [00:34:00] Texas Tech. Yes, go ahead. Exactly. Uh, or, or ut either.

Right, but, but he's a very devout Christian person. You may remember when he was a football player that he would put a Bible verse under his eye in charcoal black, or on his forehead or somewhere, and it's a Bible verse from Philippians. Which he quoted as saying, I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

The Superman verse, you know, leap tall buildings in a single bound, that sort of thing. Except that's not what that verse says. The context matters. What comes right before that is Paul says, I have learned how to live with and live without. I have learned what godliness with contentment mean. And then he says, I am able is qo, I am able and you have [00:35:00] to fill in the word.

And in this case I think it's endure. I am able to endure all things through him who strengthens me. Yeah, because he's been persecuted, he's been beaten with rods, he's been whipped. He's been, uh, you know, his poster is in the post office. Have you seen this? Man wanted, man, you know, he's suffered all those things and yet writes this beautiful letter towards the end of his ministry called Philippians, and he simply says.

Because the Lord is strengthening me. I can endure all, endure all things through him who strengthens me. Now that's powerful and that will preach. It's not an American syndrome of I am brave and I'm strong and I can do anything. It's not a Superman verse. It's I rely on God and get through it all. Amen.

Amen. Amen. [00:36:00] It, uh, uh, the, the classes of where, uh, that, that I just finished a, a long trial. And my, my token, not token, that's too light. My thematic bible verse for that trial was Proverbs 21, 31. Mm-hmm. The horse is made ready for battle. But the victory belongs to the Lord. And we do our part, we, we, we get ready for battle, we study, we do our homework, we do all of that.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't go on our resume. It goes on. God's victory belongs to the Lord. And, uh, he's able, we, we can endure, but we don't say, look how strong I am for enduring. Yeah. It's because of Christ. Who is our strength? Exactly. The longer I think about it and the closer I get to the end of the time that God is giving me here on earth, one thing I want to hear from [00:37:00] Jesus is well done, good and faithful servant.

Inherit kingdom. Inherit kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, um, I was asked and, and I've given them some ideas of what I was gonna talk about. Literally while they're getting micd up, not before, I'm about to give them one that they weren't asked, but Ben is just referenced. Um, if you got to write your own tombstone, what would you put on it?

Well, I wouldn't put what I found on a tombstone in Silverton, Colorado. Here lies the body. You have Lester Moore shot in the back with a 44, no less, no more.

You also, you also in your lecture at the library last night, did pretty good with what the tombstone of Lazarus might have read. Yes. You wanna re re reframe that for us? Yeah. So, uh, yes. What I was arguing last [00:38:00] night is that. Lazarus is one of the few people that died twice 'cause Jesus raised him from the dead.

But what I guess I would want on my tombstone was he was faithful to the Lord and is thankful for what God has done in his life. Amen. Steve? Um, same question. Yeah, I, I feel similarly. Um, but I, I have a joke too. Um, the British, but it's a British joke. Yeah. Hey, you tell it. We'll see if we get it. The, the British comedian, spike Milligan, um, said that what he wanted to be on his tomb was, I told you I was ill.

Yeah,

I told you I was ill. I think John Wesley would've put that on his tombstone. [00:39:00] I like that. But yeah, I mean, I, I, I feel very similar to Ben that I, I think it's, um, my, um, being faithful to Christ is the most significant thing about my life. And that's what I would want my tombstone to record. Yeah. Fought the good fight, kept the faith.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, I, I will tell you, I, I encourage you, if you wanna read something really interesting, read some of John Wesley's journals. They're, they're fascinating. And the funny part, I mean, he was a hypochondriac. He even wrote a book called Primitive Physics trying various remedies for various kinds of conditions.

Right. But from about 1760 on, and he lived till 1791 in the journal. Almost every year there would be a sentence. I fear this year will be my last 1762. I fear this year will be my, you know. So he [00:40:00] could have in 1791 said, see, I told you I wasn't well.

Alright. Um, uh, Ben, you, you, uh, had some interesting, uh, perspective on, uh, the, there's a Latin phrase that many of us can identify, uh, and, and, and it, it's, it's got enough cognates to it to where we think we understand it. Sola Scriptura, right. Um, uh, sola meaning soul or only, and script meaning scripture only.

Scripture. You, you had something to say about that in a panel I was moderating on Friday. Uh, I'd like you to have a chance to say it again. Sure. I, I wrote a little book for Baylor Press and, uh, it's called Sola Scriptura, and what I was exploring is the history of the use of that phrase. And actually what I discovered surprised me.

I mean, I grew up as a Protestant [00:41:00] thinking, you know the B-I-B-L-E? Yes. That's the book for me. Right? And, and I still feel very strongly about that. But what I learned was that the origins of that phrase were in Roman Catholicism. Because there were various Roman Catholic priests and others, famous people like Dante, who wrote the Divine Comedy, who were really upset with the Pope in, in his claim that he was the final authority for the church and not God's word.

William o of Ham famous philosopher said, no, it's solo script tour. The final authority for the church is God's word. Uh, Marcius of Padua famous priest also said the Pope is off base. The Bible is the last word for the church. Dante said, said this as well. Uh, John Wickliffe, the morning star of the Reformation said that he was [00:42:00] a Catholic priest in England, in fact, and said this, and, and so what happens is when you get to Luther and Calvin and Wesley.

And they're waving the Sola Scriptura banner. They're actually following the precedent of what was already said by some who were deeply troubled by the idea that a particular human being was the final authority for the church. Now it's God's word. That's the final authority for the church. Now, the other interesting thing about this is.

That in American church history. What's happened with that phrase is, whereas originally it meant the final authority on things that God's word pronounce this about, which is theology and ethics, spiritual formation, and salvation history. Those are the main subjects of the Bible. Okay. Nevertheless, one of the things that happened, especially in the South is Sola Scriptura was [00:43:00] taken to mean the only authority.

Not just the final authority, but the only authority. And that's not really ever been the case in church history. Uh, tradition has an authority. I mean, I, I've preached in many churches that could have had as the lentil of the church on the front door, the seven last words of the church. We've never done it that way before.

Right? Tradition. Baptists have traditions. Methodists have traditions, et cetera. And also reason. Reason is something we need to understand the Bible and life in general, right? The Bible is the final authority in the church. It's not the only authority, especially on subjects the Bible doesn't address. You know, I go to my doctor when I need some help that I am not finding in the Bible [00:44:00] to say the least.

I need to know which blood pressure pill to take and, and so I, I would simply say that, you know, what did happen in the south especially is this notion that sola script Torah means only the Bible. Well, it doesn't. Hmm. It never did mean that. And throughout church history, there was always right reason, sacred tradition and the Bible as the final authority about all such things.

And I would just want to add to that, experience is not an authority. Experience is the means by which we have the confirmation of the truth of scripture in our life, but it's not an authority. So, you know, we should not ha hear people saying, well, my truth tells me through my experience, X I'm sorry, but truth is [00:45:00] something that makes a claim on us.

We don't get to make a claim on it, especially when. The way the truth and the life is a person named Jesus Christ. Amen. Alright, so, um, can I, can I answer that please? Yeah. And from, from an Anglican perspective, at the time of the Reformation, um, the Church of England created a, a document called the 39 Articles, right, which is our kind of, here's how we understand what it means to be Christian and church Article six.

It is about scripture and it says, holy scripture, I'm putting it into modern English for you. Holy scripture contains everything necessary for salvation so that whatever's not contained therein or can be proved thereby is not to be required of anyone, that it be believed as necessary for salvation. Yep.

Now that's a beautiful statement I think. Of the scripture as supreme [00:46:00] authority view, and it also means that not everything in scripture is equally clear. It's saying scripture is crystal clear on the things you need to know for salvation. Absolutely crystal clear on those things, but. The rest of it keeps people like Ben and me in business.

Alright. Don't tell them that we're, we're down to our last, uh, five minutes and I do wanna make sure we're out on time to clear the, the parking lot. So, uh, uh, here's, here's my final question to you each. And Steve, we'll start with you. If you knew this was the last time you'd ever speak to a group of Christians.

And you had one minute to tell them something, what would you say?

Keep your focus on who [00:47:00] God is and what God's purposes are, because it's about God, not about us. Amen. Amen. Ben. And, and I would say. If you want to know who God is, focus first on the nouns that are predicated of a God, not the adjectives. The nouns are God is love. God is light. God is life. God is spirit, and God is one.

Those are the nouns. The adjectives like merciful. Righteous. Holy. They're all good. They're all true. But if you really want to know what's at the heart of God, think of this thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as self. Because God so loved the world that he [00:48:00] sent his only begotten son.

Sp focus on the love of God, especially in a contentious. An angry time where people are at each other's throats. The message of the love of God should be the thing that you most focus on. Amen. Well, and, uh, well said. Um, I, I want to thank again, all of you for being here. To those of you who are watching on the internet, uh, I, I want you to check out these two scholars.

Uh, check out what they are doing. Uh, get plugged into what they have to say. Uh, they've had a long journey in the Lord and they bear great fruit. And by their fruit you will know them. And some of their fruit is in writing. Some of it's in teaching. Uh, but pray for them. Be plugged into them, and thank you for being part of what makes this class great.

And now having thanked all of [00:49:00] you. Uh, let me say to both of you. Thank you. Go ahead and, and I just wanted to say you owe this man a really great debt.

Yeah, we, we, we, we all struggle to be stewards of what God has, has entrusted to us mentally, physically, and all the rest. But, uh. It, it all goes on his resume. Yep. Um, all, all goes on his seat. Yep. Um, um, okay. Uh, typically we end class with a blessing. So here's what we've got. We've got two and a half minutes, so we're going to do something that we, we've never done before in this class.

And I can say that since I started this class, uh, 28 years ago, or whenever it was 25 years ago, um, uh, we're gonna do a, a tripartite blessing on, on the class in charge. So we can, we can start with the Anglicans since you're oldest in terms of church history. Then we'll pass through [00:50:00] to the Methodist. And finally we'll end up with, uh, the multifaceted guy over here.

Baptist. Baptist, Syrian. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. So would you, uh, uh, pray us a blessing and uh, uh, then pass the baton and we will be dismissed. Hmm. The blessing of God Almighty. Father, son, and Holy Spirit be among with you and with those you love now and always. Amen. May the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and give you his peace, his shalom.

Amen. Amen. And in the name of Jesus Christ, we all say amen. Amen. Thank you all. Thank you.