Special Event – Conversation with Rev’d Dr. Lyndon Drake: Mark Lanier, 01/11/26

SE 054_Lyndon Drake_PODCAST_011126
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[00:00:00] Would you join me in welcoming Lyndon Drake to the stand? Lyndon has more degrees than a thermometer. He's got, ~um, uh,~ two doctorates, one doctorate in theology. And one doctorate in ai. Is that right? That's right. Two doctorates. It is. So he's a true paradox. ~Um, sorry,~ you only get to make that joke every once in a while.

~Um,~ and can I, can I just point out Yeah. These, these guys from New Zealand, which is where I'm from, they, they're real New Zealanders. They're much, much bigger than me. ~Um,~ and I'm always a little bit. Horrified to see them portray because I'm a small disappointment by comparison. They're, they're giants.

Well, ~um,~ we're going to get to that and I had like three pages, four pages of notes of [00:01:00] questions. Do you know, I, I'm, I'm actually not that distressed by, by not having your questions. Yeah. Well, okay. Well, so much for that. This class is over. No, ~um.~ Fortunately, I wrote those questions so I can do 'em in my brain.

You're okay. Alright. So here's what I'd like to do. I've divided this interview up into three different areas. ~Uh,~ the first area was just a, a general get to know Lyndon Drake. The second area is Bible study specific, and then the third area are some rapid fire questions. That I think, ~uh, uh,~ can also roll into a, a blessing for the end of this class.

We've got people joining us on the internet. ~Um, uh,~ take a moment, Lyndon, and tell everybody a little bit about yourself. Well, I, I grew up in New Zealand, ~um,~ where I, due to my size, did not really play rugby. I'm ill suited for the game, ~um,~ and I've never performed a haka in my entire life. All right, so let's start right [00:02:00] there.

How many of you have ever been to New Zealand? Oh, wonderful. A good bit. Yes. Alright. ~Um,~ there are, ~uh,~ in New Zealand, ~uh,~ before Westerners colonized or, or invaded or whatever it is, New Zealand. ~Um,~ the, the native New Zealanders are called. Maori. That's exactly right. Yes. ~Um,~ Maori, M-A-O-R-I. Absolutely. And you've got a little Maori blood in you.

My grandmother was Maori, yes. Your grandmother on your mom's or dad's side? On my dad's side. Alright, so that gives, ~uh,~ 1, 2, 3, 4. One fourth. One fourth Maori approximately. Exactly. All right. Now the Maori people are still proud of their culture. Absolutely. And they've got, ~uh,~ their own language. Yes. And they've got a lot of their own traditions.

I have fallen in love with the Maori, ~uh, uh,~ tradition. Becky and I got into New Zealand TV for a while. ~Um,~ yeah, because Did did you watch the Casca? [00:03:00] No, we did not. The Caers, this sounds a bit macabre. It's a show about an undertaker and it is. And this sounds really weird. It's one of the funniest bits of TV you'll ever see.

And this guy is a Maori and his wife, ~um,~ he did grow up Christian, but he wanted to marry, ~um,~ his, his now wife and she's Mormon. So sadly he converted to Mormonism. But it's such an insight into the ministry setting that I was involved in because, you know, we, we, we did a lot of funerals. The Casca, the Caers.

Yes. So casket, okay. Fantastic. ~Um,~ we'll put that on the watch list. Sorry about that. So, ~um,~ my New Zealand has a rugby team. Is Coach Max here? I saw him earlier. There you are. Alright. Those that don't know, coach Max has coached every level of American football. There is. Oh wow. Including, ~uh,~ one of the coaches for the Buffalo Bills in their Super Bowl.

~Um, uh,~ didn't the Buffalo Bills have one Super Bowl? I dunno. Anyway, ~um,~ [00:04:00] in their Super Bowl, once, once max left, they've just fallen off. But anyway, the, um, in, in New Zealand, the major sport, maybe other than cricket, would be rugby. Oh, it's, it's not a sport, it's a religion. Okay. And, and their team is called the All Blacks.

Yep. And when you play against the All Blacks. The opposing team has to come out and when the opposing team comes out, the All Blacks do a Maori haka, HAKA. Can you explain what a haka is and then we'll take a moment to look at it. Well, it's a Dans basically, and you can have, this can be for lots of different reasons.

So when the gospel first arrived in New Zealand, um, the people who heard it performed a Hari, a dance of joy, but. The one before an All Blacks game is perhaps less of a dance of joy and more of a. A dance of impending doom for the [00:05:00] opposition all. So this gives you an idea. And, and I, and now the All Blacks just waiting for the French to peel off the tracksuits.

Stand in front of the, hold on, hold on. And receive. Sounds like I have something. Yeah, I have, ~uh,~ yeah, that, that music doesn't normally go with it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's try that again. Here we go. Challenge of the hacker. We're getting ready. Those are all black Coach. That looks like you, doesn't it?

They're about to play the French team.

All right, so that's the French team lining up. Then the French team starts to get closer.

Yeah, he's charging up the[00:06:00]

coach. You don't do this with your football teams.

Yeah.

I mean, this makes you want go.[00:07:00]

I dunno if I would laugh or just walk off the field. Terrified. But, ~um,~ okay. ~Uh,~ I've got one more and then we're going to, ~uh,~ talk about this. So, the, the New Zealand Maori people are very, ~um,~ proud of their heritage, but sometimes the New Zealand parliament will adopt or attempt to pass laws that don't. ~Um, uh,~ take care of the Maori people right?

And that affect their rights. And so, ~uh,~ it's gone viral where a New Zealand young parliamentarian, ~um,~ chose parliament to perform a haka in protest of a bill. Yep. And so I will give you that and it's, ~uh,~ less than a minute. And then, ~um.~ I think this is Hannah. My pity Clark, if I recall correctly. Yeah. If six votes opposed.[00:08:00]

I think our Congress have a long way to go to be this entertaining. People might actually watch cspan. If they knew that this was gonna be on there. Alright. Now that's enough of it, but it, ~uh,~ it's a different cultural setting. So into that, you're born and how do you get from there to Oxford, England to here?

That's the, the journey I'd like you to walk. Well, I grew up in Auckland, actually. Not really embedded in the cultural setting. Okay. ~Um,~ and, ~um.~ Were you a Christian growing up? Yes. And in a Baptist church, which I understand is a good thing here. Yeah. So generally. Okay. Yep. ~Um,~ so my mother is from a long line of Baptists in England.

~Um,~ she's English and my father's New Zealander. ~Um,~ and had a wonderful childhood. [00:09:00] We, we grew up in quite a poor part of Auckland. ~Um,~ my father was the principal of an independent Christian school, ~um,~ and. I mean, you know, like many children I've, I have found much to criticize in my parents over the years.

~Um,~ but I do also really treasure a couple of things about my upbringing that I've realized in hindsight were not actually usual. So, ~um,~ my parents really modeled a love for the scriptures, which has fed into my life over the long term. ~Um,~ and they also model modeled, ~um,~ living a sacrificial Christian life.

So the cost of being a Christian. Was really evident in the way that they lived, and I think that has enormous formative power. ~Um,~ when you see somebody living out Christianity, ~um,~ that's a different thing from simply hearing people talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I know a number of people are famous for saying that there are four gospels in the Bible.

But the gospel, most people will ever come across as the way a Christian lives their life. A hundred percent. That's right. Yep. So I was the oldest of four [00:10:00] children. ~Um,~ and all of us are still going on with the Lord, which we, we thank God for. Is New Zealand an intensely Christian country? Oh, completely the opposite.

It's amazingly secular. Way, way more so than England, which by the way is pretty bad. And it, it's aggressively. Uninterested in Christianity, a little bit different in the Maori community and very different in the Polynesian community. So there's, there's more Christianity there, more spiritual openness.

But in the, the mainstream of New Zealand society, Christianity is, ~um,~ people just aren't even interested in it. Interesting. Do they just not believe in God or, or do they? They, they believe in rugby. So, which by the way is not always a very giving God. ~Um,~ but no, it's, it is just become a very secular place and, ~um,~ it's, it's one of the hardest places I think for, for gospel ministry and witness.

And, ~um,~ you know, I was very fortunate to grow up in a Christian home. ~Um,~ in that setting. So the church you went to when you were growing up, how big was it? It was really small. ~Um,~ [00:11:00] so I mean, to, to some extent I think we prided ourselves on being the narrow gate that not many people came through and, ~um,~ and it was, but, but it was, it was a faithful place.

So, uh, again, you know. I, I look back and there's things I'd want to change, but there's also, um, a sense of, of the privilege that we had of growing up in a, a community of people who love the Lord. Um, but it was a very, very small Baptist church. Um, okay. And so what got you to England from there? Well, I, um, I did my first couple of university degrees in New Zealand in science and commerce.

And then New Zealand is really quite a small place if you don't know. And I thought I'd love to go to England, which is where my mother's from, and I thought, well. I'll work there for a bit, study for a bit, ~um,~ and just reconnect with that aspect of my heritage. So in January, 2000, I moved across to London and started working for an investment bank as a software developer initially.

~Um,~ and so, ~um,~ yeah, it was a, it was a real change. And when I got to London, I loved it. I thought, this is amazing. [00:12:00] Yeah. And, and so you went as a faithful Christian and did, did you? Ever enter into one of those times where new life, new place, you kind of stepped back a little bit from your faith, or did you could just, I was super boring, so I just stayed, stayed with it, stayed with it, but there was a really significant change.

So after a few months, I went up north to York in the north of England to start my PhD in ai. And ~um,~ we, I'm, I'm old enough. That I joined a group where we had, ~uh,~ a tape meeting. So we'd wake up what we thought was early in the morning, I think it was about eight o'clock in the morning. And, and we listened to tapes mostly of John Stott.

And, ~um,~ and at the same time I knew that I ought to do evangelism. And so I joined, ~um,~ this evangelistic group and I thought, well, you know, I was a bit surprised that some non-Christians came. But I thought, you know what, they'll never become Christians. And then, I don't know, like five of them became Christians.

And, and I thought, well, they, they can't be real [00:13:00] Christians. And, but after a few weeks I realized that maybe they were better Christians than me. And so this combination of encountering John Stotts preaching and some other people and this very vibrant, evangelistic, missional life, ~um,~ really changed my, ~um,~ engagement, I think with the Christian world and gave me.

A different, a different layer, I guess, of Christian life there. So, no, I didn't really have a time away, but I did have a significant time of change. You in the business world, ~uh,~ banking world, you rose quite high. I mean, you, you did, ~uh,~ you got to a vice president level, ~uh,~ at Barclays, is that right? That's right, yes.

I mean, these are job titles that are thrown around a lot, so it's grander than it, it, it, it wasn't as grand as it sounds, but yeah, it was senior. I, I had, I had responsibility. Yeah. And, and. You sensed at some point a change of direction in your life? ~Um, uh,~ what. W brought that up. Was that before or after Miriam?

So I met Miriam through the Christian Union up at York University. Alright. Why don't you tell the, the story about your, tell, tell everybody [00:14:00] about your wife and your boys. So, ~um,~ Miriam's English, ~um,~ grew up in a place called Siren Ancestor that's not too far from Oxford. ~Um,~ and, and yes, we met through the Christian Union.

~Um,~ so this is like, ~um,~ IVF, ~um,~ InterVarsity Fellowship in the uk and its official motto is mission. And ministry. But our mission and maturity, sorry, but it's unofficial model is mission maturity and marriage. ~Um,~ 'cause lots of people meet through it, you know, and in fact, we had, we had one fantastic, ~uh,~ prayer meeting before the main meeting, and I was leading it that week and Miriam was the only one who came to it.

So we had an hour, we were just a little bit interested at that stage. So we had a whole hour, just the two of us praying together, very awkwardly. ~Um,~ but, but anyway, we, we eventually. ~Uh,~ eventually got married, ~um,~ moved back down to London, ~um,~ and we've got three boys. Two were born in London and one in Oxford.

Uh, so the oldest is just about to leave school now. Um, and the youngest is 14. Um, and yeah, and so while doing that, I, I didn't really have any, [00:15:00] I loved what I was doing in banking, and you may have some sympathy with this that sometimes. Sometimes I hear that lawyers are not well regarded. ~Um,~ but this is just a rumor.

But I've always, ~um,~ you know, you know, one of the jokes around here is, ~um,~ I'm not telling any lawyer jokes, by the way. Several, several, several people are in a life raft and the ocean, and it's, there's one too many people and there's surrounded by sharks and they gotta figure out who to throw over. And the decision is made to throw over the lawyer and.

And the sharks just ignore the lawyer and they call out to the lawyer, Hey, how, what's going on? And the lawyer says, ask professional courtesy. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. Yeah, go ahead. That's, that's horrible. Yeah, I know. It's a terrible joke. Yeah. Yeah. ~Um,~ but anyway, finance is a, sometimes treated with a similar level of, ~um,~ disdain, but I really felt like I was doing something worthwhile, ~um,~ as, as a Christian in business, ~um,~ but also had, ~um.~

Over time, a sense of call into Christian ministry. And so eventually went off, ~um,~ to, we moved across to Oxford. ~Um,~ two of our kids were born at that point [00:16:00] and, and retrained. So I, I started from scratch doing the, ~um,~ BA in theology and it was a real shock to my system and it was very good for my humility because I, I'd, you know, I'd become a little bit senior and I was used to people.

I guess deferring to me a little bit. And, and then I got there and I was terrible at it, at the start. I mean, I was really, really bad at languages and I mean, I still am, but I, I'm persistent and I, I remember my first Hebrew test, my Hebrew tutor gave it back to me, but he hadn't bothered marking it. ~Um,~ 'cause it was so awful.

And he'd written on it. If you need help, which is a very unnecessary statement. And then had said, please ask, and he'd underlined the please just in case I missed it. So, ~um,~ this is like real sanctification for me. And I, I've kept that actually because I was like, this is, this is good for me. I didn't enjoy it at all.

So, so after having a, a, a doctorate in ai Yes. [00:17:00] You went back and got an undergraduate degree in theology. Yes. And then from Oxford. From Oxford, yeah. And then you got, ~uh,~ what was your next degree on? Well, so then we went back to New Zealand and I was in Christian ministry there. ~Um,~ but had the sense of wanting to be involved in Christian scholarship.

~Um,~ and, and so we, we moved back after a few years and did a year full-time, a masters at Oxford. And, and at this stage in Hebrew, Bible Old Testament. ~Um,~ and then back in New Zealand for another few years and rather stupidly, I did my doctorate in Hebrew Bible at the same time as I was in Anglican Middle Management in New Zealand.

Well, does it deserve applause or, or rebuke? Maybe. I don't know. ~Um.~ Yeah. So, but, but actually I found it really life-giving. I found, ~um,~ for all that it was really hard work. ~Um,~ you know that in Ezekiel, he's told to eat the scroll and it tastes as sweet as honey on his lips. And for some people, theological study is a very disorienting experience.

But for me in Christian ministry, it's been [00:18:00] life-giving. ~Um,~ that encounter with the scriptures being able to go deeper, which I, you know, I'm sure you have sympathy with, ~um,~ that this is, ~um,~ this is a life giving thing to spend time in God's word. ~Um,~ and so, so for me, the doctorate went alongside what I was doing in ministry.

There. What was it that captivated you and made you focus Old Testament as opposed to, ~uh,~ like Jesus, new Testament, Jesus or Paul or, or whatever? Well, I, during my undergraduate degree, I'd done some work because I'd been in finance and I, I'd really felt the church hadn't had a lot to say to me about what I did day to day.

So there was this, this sense that I shouldn't steal money, but, you know, most of my secular colleagues also didn't steal money and. What I was doing was I, I thought was reasonably complex and interesting, and I wanted the church to speak into what I was doing day to day in the workplace. And so I thought, well, that didn't happen and I'd love to be part of, of redeeming that.

So during my undergraduate degree, I did [00:19:00] some work on, ~um,~ in the, in debt forgiveness, in the Lord's Prayer. And during that, ~um. Uh,~ I had some advice to really think about if I wanted to think about systemic issues of finance and society, that the, the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, was going to be a better place because of that whole of society address that goes on versus, you know, the New Testament's written at a time when Christianity is still very marginal.

There's no social power attached to it. ~Um,~ and so that's what pushed me to, to get into the Old Testament more and initially to think about finance, ~um,~ and, and, and those kind of issues. Yeah. So you, you, you take a, a course of study in Old Testament and somewhere in the midst of all of this you become an Anglican.

~Um,~ what do we call you? An Anglican. An arch Deacon. An arch deacon. Much like investment banking, Anglicans like titles. Okay. ~Uh,~ of the, the Anglican Church. The Church of England. Yes, that's right. But in New Zealand, the Anglican Church. 'cause it's a little bit separate from the Church of England now, but Yes.

[00:20:00] And particularly within, within the Maori community. So this, by that point. I was ministering in that community. A lot of that's in the Maori language and in this setting of immense spiritual openness. ~Um,~ there was, there's a lot of the ministry context we're involved in was the opposite of the mainstream of New Zealand society.

People wanted ministry to come in there and, and that's great. Wow. So like, ~um.~ That lady that did the haka Yes. ~Um,~ that started ripped the p You don't like know her, do you? ~Um,~ so I have encountered her, the, the guy who was more visible with the, the, the hat, the sneakers, and the hat. ~Um,~ I do know him a bit, ~um,~ and some of the other people there, there was a guy later in the video who stands up, who I know quite well, who's a government minister.

~Um,~ so it, I was, I was fortunate enough to be brought into these. Yeah, I mean, you should. It's a, it's a great country and the culture's awesome. I just wanna see the haka. You should, it's, it's, ~um,~ well, and if you go to a cultural experience, you'll see it, but, but not on the church. No, we do a haka in the church.

So, so you, you study Old Testament. [00:21:00] You get your PhD, were there in the process. Were there any moments of study? I, I think everybody who spends much time in the Bible sometimes has these aha moments. Yeah. You know, where you say, aha, you know, whoa, I didn't know that was there. Or something like that. ~Uh,~ does anything like that come to mind as an, as we're sitting up here?

Well, one of the things I've loved about studying the scriptures. Has been seeing connections that I hadn't realized were there before. ~Um,~ and actually many of those are in the New Testament. So just recently at Yatin, at the linear center there, we were reading through Philippians. ~Um,~ and somebody pointed out, ~um,~ there's, ~um,~ a connection back between Philippians and in this part of the Old Testament.

And I, I had never seen it before. And just that sense of, of slowing down. ~Um,~ and of looking for these, these points of connectivity across the scriptures, ~um,~ has been, has been a really wonderful thing for me. Okay. So I was at, ~uh,~ over in Yarnton, ~um,~ December something or [00:22:00] another. ~Um,~ no, and, and no, it may have been earlier in the summer, but I was over there when you preached a sermon, ~um, uh, uh,~ and, and in church while you were preaching.

~Um.~ What, how do you go about your own personal life, ~uh,~ studying, ~uh,~ tuning into God and, and things like that? So, I mean, one of the things that's I think is a privilege of Christian ministry is often, ~um,~ you have many opportunities for engaging in worship, but also as a family. Now we've got a, a habit of, ~um,~ meeting every morning, ~um,~ and having prayers together then, ~um,~ and that's been.

Very important to us. ~Um,~ it, it depends on the kids stage. So in New Zealand, we actually used to do evening prayers together. ~Um,~ and then at Oxford there's also a lot of communal life around, around worship. So the Oxford colleges have many of the old ones have college chapels. ~Um,~ and so participating in that life.

~Um,~ has been another important thing, and then I, I have opportunities to serve in ministry. I largely, now I don't have to organize services, which I [00:23:00] enjoy. I just turn up and take the service as needed. ~Um,~ and so it gives me a chance, ~um, um,~ to. To serve in that way, ~um,~ to preach. I'll be preaching, actually, I'll be preaching at Eaton College in a, in a couple of weeks time.

Really? Yeah. Do you know what you're preaching on yet? ~Um,~ actually no. I do need to choose what I'm going to preach on. That would be useful to do as part of sermon preparation. Yeah. ~Um,~ yeah, that's, that's a, this is a first, that's an important one. Yeah. ~Um,~ do you have a favorite sermon you've preached? ~Um.~

Do you know? I don't think I do. I've, my most common sermons are probably funeral sermons. And I have to say, I do love, I, I really enjoy taking funerals. And I know it seems like an odd thing to say, but it's because I, I remember in particular, one, ~uh,~ person I knew and her father died and she rang me up about the funeral service and said, ~um,~ this is in the Maori setting.

So she said, Matua, which is a, just a term of respect. She said, Matua, I don't know what to do. And I said, but we do. And, and we are gonna look after you. And, ~um,~ there, there's this sense where for much of life, if you're not a Christian, you can proceed [00:24:00] as if these things don't matter and don't exist. But there's an openness that comes, ~um,~ when death intrudes on, you know, towards the end.

~Um,~ I think of two Peter. They, we say to ourselves, life will carry on as it's always gone and. And death intrudes on that. And it opens us up spiritually. So being able to preach into those settings has been an immense privilege because at that time you can tell that people who do not know the Lord Jesus are open to it.

And particularly in a Maori setting, we could be, we could be really open. I mean, I, I'll tell, can I tell you? Yeah. ~Um,~ one of the first funeral services I went to with my bishop in New Zealand, ~um,~ and funerals are really important in Maori culture. They take three days. ~Um,~ and you'll have, ~um,~ church services at least twice a day during that.

And the final church services a really big affair. So we were in this tiny place in the middle of the country. The church was packed out. There were people leaning in the windows and hundreds of people outside who couldn't get in. And so my and the person, ~uh,~ who, who had [00:25:00] died was one of his clergy. And so, ~um,~ Bishop Kittle stood up and he said.

~Uh,~ during his sermon, he said, so Tahu, the person who died once, stood before me at, at ordination, and I asked him questions as part of his ordination, and I asked him, will you, will you, will you? He said, but he no longer stands before me to answer, will you? Will you, will you? Instead, he stands before the great judge of all the Earth who says to him, did you, did you, did you?

Now, I mean, I was sitting up the front as you know, all road up as an Anglican. I was feeling pretty sined and there are a lot of people there who, who didn't know the Lord Jesus at all. And then he looked up at us and he said, one day each of you will stand before that same great judge. And he'll say to you too, did you, did you, did you?

Now there's a lot of settings in the cultural West where if you said that at a funeral service, I mean if I, if I did this at a Church of England church, I'd probably be [00:26:00] cast out. But. The, the, that sense of being able to speak into people's lives openly about the gospel, ~um,~ was absolutely a wonderful privilege.

I think, if I remember right, you and I have on another occasion talked and you were telling me about a Maori funeral that was not. So much based on a Christian or something. And, and the funeral procession was one where? Oh, yes. Well, and, and you know, people take different views on this, but there's, there's a lot of, ~um,~ in traditional Maori spirituality, there's, there's a lot of contact with spirits, god's, whatever you want to call 'em, but spiritual beings, and there's a lot of concern about.

Safety. ~Um,~ and so one of the things that I could do in that setting, or at least that I felt called to do, ~um,~ was to be open about the fact that I didn't need the protection of the prayers of, of that traditional religious setting. And so, so I, I would walk in that context in a way where I [00:27:00] knew people would want to see if I survived.

The spiritual risk. And, and I do think there are experience. Explain, explain though. The, the setup. 'cause we don't know that setup. So, so in this, in this context, there would be somebody doing a prayer to try and clear the pathway before the coffin. ~Um,~ and to make sure that it was a spiritually safe path to walk.

So the evil spirits don't get you while you're walking. That's right. And, and you know, I think there's a real in that con, you know, when you call on things, there's, there's, you know, there's, there's, there's real things involved there. And so I would walk in front and I would. To, to me at least, I wanted to convey that I felt perfectly safe as a Christian, ~um,~ in that context without the need for those, ~um,~ and that I would be able to go into settings and have a confidence that, that I was protected by Christ and I was really helped for my bishop saying the same thing he said, you know, don't worry about all of that.

Just pray Christian prayers, ~um,~ and, and trust in that and, and God will watch over you. ~Um,~ wow. So, wow. Alright. So how you, you have prayer time at home with your kids Yes. And [00:28:00] your wife each morning? Yes. Un unpack that for us. What does that look like? Well, the pattern that we use now is, is with, within the Anglican tradition of mourning morning prayer.

~Um,~ and so it's a service that begins with adoration of God, confession of sin, ~um,~ scripture, ~um.~ There's the, the Benedictus, the Song of Zechariah, ~um,~ and then we pray for the day ahead. ~Um,~ and we've encouraged the children over time to, ~um,~ in the evening to give thanks for the day that's passed and in the morning to pray for what's coming up.

~Um,~ and yeah, and we've, we've found, to be honest, what we foc what we focused on is achievability. So we don't have an hour and a half long service every morning, but what we try to do is make sure that we can do it consistently, ~um,~ and. Yeah, it, that's amazing. Alright, so, ~um, uh,~ this is a Bible study hour for us.

~Um, uh,~ what, ~uh,~ help us work through some Bible study. We've got an ability to put it up here. You've got your computer, which has your Bible. ~Um, uh,~ what should we study this morning? Well, I wonder, could we have a [00:29:00] quick look at the Lord's Prayer? 'cause that's what took me into this path. Yeah, that would be great.

And ~um,~ I'll put it up here and you can. Pull it up there. So I just tried pulling it up in the Old Testament, which really doesn't work, by the way. Top tip. Let's see. So, ~um,~ so what, what got me interested in, in the Lord's Prayer, ~um,~ was the, the Petition for Forgiveness. Now in, in the Anglican version of the Lord's Prayer that we say these days, ~um,~ in, in England, we say, forgive us our sins.

As we forgive those who sin against us, but the, the word in Greek perhaps has certainly a little bit of the possibility of speaking of debt as well as sin. Now, this is where my New Zealand accent isn't, isn't very good. How would you say debt? There we go. So in other words, you owe somebody money or give us our debt as we forgive our debtors.

There we go. That's the way we set it in Lubbock. Well, I, I'm, I'm very grateful because, ~um,~ you know, my wife [00:30:00] would point out as well, my accent is, is incomprehensible in much of the world, and I was very interested in this partly because it's, it's the only petition that comes with a condition attached.

And I wondered how much of this connects in then with. Money debts. And this takes us back into the Old Testament setting, I think of Deuteronomy 15 and the obligation to forgive money that's owed every seven years as part of Israel's life. ~Um,~ so in, in, in what I wrote about the Lord's Prayer, I argued as some other people have too, but that Jesus is expecting, ~uh,~ Christians to forgive the debts of money that are owed to them, as well as the debts of sin.

And later on in Matthew's gospel, ~um,~ in Matthew 18, Jesus tells a parable that's very often taken to be the explanation of this part of the Lord's Prayer. ~Um,~ and I'm guessing that many of you know this parable, the parable [00:31:00] of the unforgiving debtor. And this person has an impossibly vast sum of money that they owe, and they're gonna be thrown in prison.

And the the person who has lent them the money, forgives the debt, and then they go off to somebody else who owes them a very small amount of money and punishes them. And this becomes then a parable of our relationship with God as he forgives our unforgivable debt of sin. And how we very often then fail to forgive other people.

~Um,~ in fact, this became central to a sermon of, ~um,~ of Jonathan Edwards, ~uh,~ where he talks about this, this, ~um,~ inability of us to, to show that same forgiving attitude to other people, even though we've been, we've been shown such mercy. So that, that passage there is what really got me into this whole area of finance.

~Um,~ yeah, it, it's a fascinating study, ~uh, uh,~ because the. You know, today if someone owes you money [00:32:00] and they don't pay you, you put a lien on their house, or you put a, you know, you, they repossess your car or they, ~uh, uh,~ you can file a lawsuit to collect. We have those types of, of debt settlement issues. ~Um,~ but back in ancient times, ~uh,~ you, if you couldn't do it, you, you were thrown in prison.

And, ~uh,~ you, you might be out on a work furlough, but the work furlough was just a work furlough till you paid your debt. Mm. And, ~uh,~ more realistically, your family or whomever cared for you while you were in prison would have to pay your debt. And their prisons were not like our prisons in the sense that you, you had three square meals a day and, and just had to, to, you know, keep yourself safe.

~Uh,~ their, their prisons, you didn't get fed generally. ~Uh,~ you, you had to have your family come feed you. ~Uh,~ so it, it was a, a much different, ~uh,~ situation. And Jesus's parable then takes on [00:33:00] some, some real punch that maybe we lose a hundred percent. And it also draws on this Old Testament background. So the reason that this, ~um.~

Imagery of debt and sin is so useful in, in the Lord's Prayer and in Jesus teaching more generally is partly because there's an aramic and actually Hebrew word that has that same multi valency. So Hove in Hebrew and Aramic can mean. But it can also mean a debt of money that's owed. And, and it ends up becoming a really striking image along with other images that are used for sin in the scriptures, but it becomes a very important image later on.

So Gary Anderson, ~um,~ has written about this. He's written a book called Sin A History, ~um,~ whereas he's thinking about these different metaphors and images for sin. ~Um,~ there is, ~uh, uh,~ the, the Greek word here for forgive us are debts, if I'm not mistaken, is. That's exactly right. ~Um,~ which is, is, ~um,~ is debt. I mean, it, it, it is, but it, it is a word like hope that that [00:34:00] can be used Also, the, the debt of sin.

~Um,~ Charles Mickey, are you here? Charles taught me this song one time, 50 years ago. ~Uh,~ he paid a debt, he did not owe, I owe a debt. I could not pay Christ Jesus. SII didn't learn the song. I needed someone to wash. I needed someone to wash my sins away. And now I sing a brand new song. Amazing, amazing. Grace Christ Jesus paid a debt Yes.

That I could never pay. And, and there was, ~um,~ there was a, a man who studies how people think his name's George Lakoff. Oh, yes. Yeah. And Lakoff wrote a, a. ~Uh,~ a seminal book on how we think in metaphors. Yes. ~Uh,~ it's not just metaphors are helpful, but, but we actually are, are, they're built into the way we think.

And, and I think we see biblically the use of this idea of a debt. ~Um,~ that's not only one that's, that's [00:35:00] transactional between you and me, but it's one that's transactional between me and God. Exactly. And, and, and we see the bridge of that. And the need to forgive as well as the need to forgive. Yeah. ~Uh,~ or get forgiveness.

I guess it's more one way there. Mm-hmm. ~Um,~ so that took you back into Old Testament studies? Absolutely. Because this is in, in that Greek use of, of Oura, it seems likely we, we don't have any use of, ~um,~ that meaning sin prior to Jesus using it, ~um,~ or it being used in the gospels that way. And so this imagery.

Of debt and sin comes from that Jewish background in the Old Testament, and in particular from Deuteronomy 15. So later on, later on in the Sermon on the Mount, ~um,~ again, many of you'll remember, Jesus says, do not have an evil eye towards your brother or sister. ~Um,~ and that, that as well comes from Deuteronomy 15.

So do not have an evil eye in this case and refuse to forgive the [00:36:00] debts that are owed to you. So later on in the sermon, Jesus is using the same imagery that's only used about debt forgiveness. When he says the evil eye, it's not a general thing. It's very specifically don't, don't hold this debt against your sister or brother in the faith.

Okay, that, that's really good. So, ~um,~ I've pulled this up to Deuteronomy 15 so that folks can see it. Let's, maybe I can make it a little bigger for everybody. There we go. ~Um,~ at the end of every seven years, you shall grant a release. This is the manner of the release. Every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbor.

He shall not exact it of his neighbor, his brother, because of the Lord's release has been proclaimed. Yep. And, ~um,~ the, the, the word there for exact implies, ~um,~ a great deal of pressure being put on you. So it's, you've got this ability to compel the repayment of the debt, and you're no longer allowed to compel it.

And as you've already said, in the ancient world, that compulsion was [00:37:00] really pretty bad. And in, in the ancient Israelite world, it was not just prison, but slavery, which is what comes later in Deuteronomy 15. Yeah. And so this. This practice actually of releasing people from their debts and freeing them from slavery every seven years was widespread in the ancient near Eastern world, but it had a political purpose.

So in ~um,~ in Mesopotamian settings, you have these Andorra and Meam decrees, and what they do is the king sets free everyone from their slavery and sets debtors free from all of their debts throughout. ~Um,~ throughout society, but this was not an act of benevolence. This is not because the king was a, a loving king, warmly disposed towards their people.

Instead, it's because if debts build up and slavery takes over, eventually, if you are the king in this oppressive society. You start to worry that there might be a revolt. And [00:38:00] I mean, I understand there's some experience in this country of oppressive kings and revolutions and things, but, ~um,~ the, that's 250 years ago.

Go ahead. It's a long time ago. Yeah. ~Um.~ And to preclude that from happening. Often a new king or a king who was worried about the social chaos would forgive the, would wipe the slate clean. But again, it was, it was really to preserve social order. The innovation in Deuteronomy is that God says this is now part of the pattern, the regular pattern of Israel's life.

So we are to become a forgiving people. And you notice the language of brother there. So an ah, in Hebrew, this is not because, ~um,~ Israel has to compel actual siblings to forgive debts of each other. Instead, it's what's called in scholarship, often fictive kinship. And it means that, you know, you and I who are not, ~um,~ not brothers by birth, but because we're part of Israel's family are to treat each other as if we were that way.[00:39:00]

And there's a number of places where this turns up. And, and I think it's a beautiful picture that's then picked up in the New Testament that, that we who are now adopted into God's family. And this is where that familial language comes from. We are to treat each other as if we were close family members and in an ideal family.

Some, some real families are a little bit murky around this, but we all know how we ought to treat our sisters and brothers. And, and so there's this idea. That we ought to, to treat people a particular way, and this helps us to think about it. So I, I don't think about you now as somebody who's in a financial relationship with me.

Instead, I think about you as being part of Yahweh's family, and therefore I'm gonna behave in this, this very forgiving way towards you. ~Um,~ I love that, and I love the, the way you've linked it up with the Lord's Prayer because Jesus says, forgive us our debts. Yes. ~Uh,~ as we forgive our debtors. Yes. And [00:40:00] if you notice that link between us and the Lord is also in Deuteronomy 15.

You don't exact it from your neighbor, your brother, your ach, because the Lord's release has been proclaimed. Yes, this is God's release and it's, it's. This is all part of, ~uh,~ life for a liberated people. Exactly. And it's not the release of the human king. I mean, the human king in Deuteronomy has no power whatsoever.

Their sole job is to copy out the law once a year. They, they don't have any of the privileges of an ancient nearest and king. And so this isn't the king's release. Well, in a sense it is because Yahweh is the king, is the king, and so this is the, this is the king, king Yahweh's release of his people. And so that, that sense of forgiveness and grace, which I, I think runs through the whole of Deuteronomy, you know, at the start, I did not choose you because you were the greatest of peoples, but because you were the least of peoples and.

This, this [00:41:00] amazing picture of God's generosity towards Israel is then meant to play out in Israel's life, in the way that they treat each other around such mundane things as their finances, ~um,~ the way that they organize their households and social relationships and so on and so forth. And this then informs what Jesus is doing.

I think in reiterating that. In the Lord's Prayer, in his instruction, not to have an evil eye towards one sister or brother. In other words, not to be grudging or stingy. And in the parable, he then tells which links divine forgiveness for us, just like for Israel with these, these sort of monetary forgiveness.

So, so to me this, this then informs the kind of ideal common life that we would form in society. I mean, if New Zealand, New Zealand is incredibly non-Christian. But we pray and hope that one day we'll see christen them again. The, the, the nation converted to Christ. And what I want to think about [00:42:00] is if that happened, what would our financial system look like?

And I think it would be characterized by this kind of forgiving financial arrangement, which in certain senses looks immensely impractical. But Israel flourished under this. And we know that the sabbatical year was observed. And, ~um,~ and partly we know actually during Jesus time it was still observed.

Yeah. It, it would be kind of amazing if, ~um.~ Those credit card companies that advertise on TV said, you know, every seven years Yeah, it's gone. You, you start back over with a full line of credit. ~Um, uh,~ I, yeah, but that doesn't really seem off in the future much here. ~Um,~ but, but it wasn't our Christian past though.

Bankruptcy laws are a Christian innovation that reflects a Christian imagination about how to think about that in a new context. Actually that's true and, and it's interesting. Bankruptcy laws vary state by state. Texas has some of the most, ~um, uh,~ [00:43:00] liberal laws. Historically, it's changed over the last decade or two, but historically we had some of the most liberal laws for people who were in debt.

~Uh,~ here in Texas. And the reason why is the, our initial code here was written by a bunch of people from Tennessee that were running from their creditors. And so Texas was settled by people who were running from their debts. And so they wrote a very liberal bankruptcy, ~uh, uh, uh,~ approach and, and all the rest.

Alright, so let me ask you, let's get practical now. We will move to the third stage of this. ~Um,~ are you good at forgiving people? ~Uh.~ So what I want to say of course is yes, I am. But, but no, not particularly. And, ~um,~ the, I, I think as with many things in the Christian life, the more I look at this, the more I become aware of my need for, for grace.

Not simply to be forgiven generically, but but to be forgiven in that way. I do think that that studying this though has helped me to, to think about how to express that in particular situations. And in church ministry especially, I've found that [00:44:00] often. ~Um,~ people have treated me maliciously and I mean, maybe sometimes in a deserved way, but there have often been situations where I was really clear that it was undeserved and, ~um,~ and so I have, I have worked hard to then to try and model what it looks like to forgive in those settings.

~Um,~ but I, but my, my awareness of my own sinfulness just increases. I think the more. The more I look at that. Yeah. How, how, let's, let's talk pastorally for a moment. How do we transition between what we know we should do mm-hmm. And what we are able to do? How do, how do you, ~uh,~ juggle those chainsaws without losing a finger?

Well, I mean, one thing I've grown to have an enormous amount of confidence over time with is actually the proclamation of the scriptures. So the public reading of scripture. The preaching of the scripture. It's actually the thing I've seen that's been most pastorally effective. So much more. I mean, often by the time people are looking for counseling, they, [00:45:00] in my experience, they're often already set on a pathway.

~Um,~ but there is something about gathering together to hear God's word. There's an act of submission involved in doing that. That creates a spiritual openness. ~Um,~ and I think there's an invitation to the Holy Spirit, ~um,~ that, that often plays out in those settings. I also think, ~um,~ something which was outside my tradition when I grew up, see as I was growing up, the really key thing was that, ~um,~ expressions of Christian virtue, I guess, would come from the sense of great, ~um,~ emotional devotion to God.

One of the things that I've been helped by over time is that habitation is also a good thing. So forming good habits provides a safeguard. It provides a default 'cause my feelings ebb and flow. There are times when I feel very close to God and there are times when I feel very distant from him, and I've learned not to trust those as a compass for how I then ought to act in life.

And the sense of forming good habits of [00:46:00] behavior. I think, ~um,~ people like James KA Smith have written about this. ~Um,~ and, and that's been very influential on, on me over time. So, so both of those things, encountering the scriptures, especially in communal settings, ~um,~ and the habitation, ~uh,~ your services that, that I've partaken in, ~uh,~ that, that you've led, ~uh,~ are very scripture intense services.

Uh, there's a lot of scripture that's, that's read or said by, by. Uh, the Rector. Uh, there's a lot that that is said by the congregation. Uh, and, and it, some of it is repetitive in the sense that, uh, you know, you're gonna say the Lord's Prayer every Sunday period. Yeah. May, may say it twice. Um, uh, but there's, there's, there's some, some nourishment there.

That's right. And I, you know, I grew up in a very different setting from that. Um, but I've grown to love that and. I, I'm still a little bit torn about it. There's an expressiveness that's sometimes lost in [00:47:00] that liturgical setting. My ideal service, by the way, would combine the, the richness of that liturgical practice, um, with an open expressiveness.

But it's quite hard to get people to, you know, most people have a disposition towards one or the other. Um, so I, I go and help out in my college chapel, which is incredibly liturgical. Um, but I have to say my kids are not big fans of it, so I dragged them along once and that's been it. So, but you know, I love it.

And, um, but at the same time, there can be a wonderful expressiveness as well that's sometimes lost in those settings. What I've grown to appreciate though, is that I, I don't see repetition as the, as the enemy of spiritual life, um, to store God's word up in our hearts. Um, does require practice or it does for me anyway.

Some people can read it once and they've got it. Yeah. Um, but there's also, uh, a bit like, you know, working in the original languages still for me, it makes me slow down. Absolutely. And reading through these things together, um, makes me slow down and notice things that I wouldn't have otherwise [00:48:00] seen. So, you know, in, in a morning prayer service in, in college, we might read through three psalms.

We, we might read through seven chapters of scripture sometimes. And that practice of doing it, there is repetition, but. Uh, there's good to be found in it. Yeah. Um, uh, I, I love to read the Psalms in Hebrew. Yes. Uh, each morning, uh, it's, it's something I try to do and, and it's very slow reading for me because the psalms are and be likewise are, are really tough for me to read.

It's very hard Hebrew. Um, alright, uh, one more question and then we're gonna move into a, a time of blessing, but, um, best book you've read outside of the Bible in the last, uh, year. So I think the one that's had the biggest influence on me, um, it's, did you say the last year? Uh, last two years. Can I stretch it a little bit?

Stretch it. Okay. So a, a wonderful book is Paul and The Gift by John Barkley. Oh, we were talking about that yesterday. Exactly. And one of the reasons, it's a big door stop of a book, and he's [00:49:00] written a shorter version of it, but he's, he's really talking about grace and I think grace has been a very contested space, particularly in the evangelical world and.

I I what I felt like with that book he had attended. It's a, it's from a Lifetime's work of scholarship and it is a scholarly book, but it's deeply pastoral. And I, I said earlier I found that the study of the scriptures has been life giving to me. And I think it comes through in that book that I think it's been life giving to John Barkley as well.

Certainly it was life giving to me to read that book and study it and. You know, it's a ponder, God's grace. Um, and the richness of his kindness, I think is an immensely worthwhile exercise. But that book captures something of the scriptures. Mm. Um, the John Barkley I think was the last person that we interviewed in this class, and so y'all may remember him.

Um, that's wonderful. Alright. Now, if this were a liturgical service, how [00:50:00] would it end? Well, the, the very end would be to send people out. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We, we do that too at a Catholic church that's called a mass exit, but, um, we, but, but we would, there's more. There we go. We would pronounce a blessing over people before we send them out.

Yeah. So, so, um, the, uh. Uh, last thing that I would like to do, there, there, there are people who are watching this that may want to know more about you, about, um, oh, I didn't even ask an AI question. Do I have to, I can squeeze in one AI question. I mean, the guy's got a PhD in ai. Um, so let me just ask it this way.

For those who haven't been attending the lecture weekend, should we all be scared to death? I don't think we should be, because for a start we're Christians, but also I don't think it's bringing Terminator Judgment Day or Nirvana. Yeah, I saw Musk, uh, Elon Musk the other day said, you don't need to save for [00:51:00] retirement because in 20 years, AI will make do everything for everybody and will all have an incredible standard of living.

I mean, I think it's a safe bet for him to make that he doesn't have to save for retirement.

But, but that's not the financial advice you're giving us. I'm not licensed to give financial advice, but that is not my financial advice. Um, uh, so AI useful, amazingly useful. I mean, I was using it this morning, you know? Yeah. I, I love it, but I, I'm a geek, so, yeah. And yet, AI also destructive. Can be. It can be.

That's right. And like, like many, many things in the world, um, there's both a ma and woundedness from sin and its consequences and from our disposition to, to take good things and use or misuse them well, and I mean, coming back to that, sending out, I think this is part of that tradition of sending out, can I tell you a story [00:52:00] about a church in London?

Sure. And. It's a church called St. Helen's Bishops Gate, and it's a reasonably ancient church, not super old, only about 800 years, I think, but over the arch of the doorway is an inscription. And as the theology of the church has changed over the centuries, that inscription has been either on the outside.

So you read it as you go into the church or on the inside, as you go out of the church. And the inscription says, now you enter the house of God. And these days, and originally that was on the inside of the church. 'cause it says as we leave the church building, we enter the house of God to go and do his work.

Um, so that's to me is the context of blessing. At the end of a service, we receive God's blessing in order to go and be God's hands and feet in his world. Okay. Would you deliver a blessing from the Lord for us? And then, uh, we, we will, uh, consider that our closing prayer. I will, I'd love to do that. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, all right. Do we, do we stand or. Well, can I pull one up as well? [00:53:00] Can, can I use an Anglican one? Is that Sure. Loud in here and then, um, that'd be great. Um, feel free to, to what, what's your custom? I, I want to stand up because I'll feel really odd if I don't Well, we're gonna stand up 'cause we're gonna be done when we're done anyway.

Okay. Those that can stand. Um, brilliant. So, oops, let me just get through second. And, and by the way, uh, next Sunday. Bring your Bibles. We will. We will get back into Romans. Great. Let's pray together. Eternal Father who at the baptism of Jesus, revealed him to be your son, anointing him with the Holy Spirit.

Grant to us who are born again by water and the spirit that we may be faithful to our calling as your adopted children. Through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord, who is alive and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God now and forever, and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit [00:54:00] be with you and remain with you all now and forevermore.

Amen. Amen. Thank you, Lyndon. Would you join me in thanking him?