Special Event – Conversation with Dr. Carmen Joy Imes: Mark Lanier, 10/11/26

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[00:00:00] I am so excited this morning to get to introduce to you Dr. Carmen Imes. I'm going to be interviewing her. So that we've got a feel, how many of you saw her either at the panel discussion Friday or at her lecture last night at the library? Okay, a good number of you, but that means a good number of you did not, and this will be a real treat for you.

Uh, Carmen, if I could be so bold with Dr. Imes, is amazing. An incredible communicator who's got incredible knowledge, but also an incredible heart for God. She teaches at Biola at the Talbot School of Theology. Would you join me in welcoming Dr. Carmen Imes? Thank you.

Okay, and I'd love to tell you we've got this elaborately scripted teaching moment [00:01:00] today, but we don't. We talked about it for maybe 25 seconds. But I did warn her, I said, "Carmen, when we start, a lot of these folks will not know you, will not know your story. Uh, tell us a little bit about you. Where'd you grow up?

What was your home life like?" Mm. And, uh, give us a feel for the backstory. You know, during the greeting time, somebody asked me, "Are you the missionary?" And I said, um, "Well, sort of. Yes. No. I think there's other missionaries talking today." Um, but actually, my story starts with a call to missions. Yeah. So, uh, I grew up in a Christian home.

My parents took us to church every Sunday. My dad's here in the front row, traveling with me on this trip. I can never remember a Sunday morning in my childhood where we sat at the breakfast table and tried to decide if we were gonna be going to church or not. Uh, it, it was just obvious that we were, usually twice a Sunday, and then Wednesday night [00:02:00] programming and all the, the whole nine yards.

I remember a particular Sunday when missionaries had come back to report on their work in Sierra Leone, West Africa. And we were in the basement of the church, and there was a meal. They had served us African groundnut stew, and they explained to us, "Okay, this is how it works in Africa. You take, uh, uh, uh, some rice with your hands, you make it into a ball, you dip it in the stew, and then you eat it."

And I thought, "Sounds great." So I rolled up my sleeves, and I started making balls of rice, and I looked around the room, and everyone else had picked up a spoon- ... and started eating. And I thought, "I don't feel like you weren't listening." So I was about eight years old at the time, and I remember after we ate, we all walked over to the other s- uh, half of the room, where they had chairs set up with a, with a slide projector.

Y'all remember slide projectors? Yeah. So, uh, he, he was showing slides of their life in West Africa. I remember a big snake, and I remember a Jeep. That's about all I remember from the slides. But what I [00:03:00] remember was him saying, "Y'all, we need help." I don't think he said y'all. Uh- "We need help. Uh, we need help in Sierra Leone.

We would love to have you join us." And what I recall is nearly laughing out loud, because I looked around the room at the other, at all the grownups in the room, and I thought, "They're not going to Sierra Leone." "They have houses, and they have cars, and they have jobs, and they have kids, and that would be really complicated."

Um, at eight years old, I could already feel how complicated that would be, and I looked at my lap, and I thought- I'm not tied down. I could actually do that. I- what if I organized my life so that I didn't get entangled, I didn't have a house and a car, and, uh, didn't have debt that needed to be paid off?

What if I just organized my life so that I could say yes to God, and that wherever He calls me, I could go? So at, at eight years old, that was my commitment. And then about 12 years old, [00:04:00] uh, I went through a period of time, it was about two weeks long, where the Lord made very clear that He was calling me into His work.

I was going to a Christian school. Our memory verse for the, for the week was Matthew 28:18-20, the Great Commission. And I'd always loved it, so I was happy to memorize it. We went to church that Sunday, and this was a period of time in our life where we were going to two churches. We were kinda two-timing.

Uh, we had been in the Christian Reformed Church, which is, you know, very straight-laced. I would never have worn tennis shoes in that context. Um, so we'd go there first, and that's where all of our family and friends were, and all the people from my school. But my uncle had left the fold and found a wildly charismatic church where he was experiencing the movement of the Holy Spirit, and he kept inviting us.

And so one Sunday we went, and we kinda fell in love with it, but we couldn't quite leave. And so for a while, we were going to both churches. So we show up at the CRC church. Um, [00:05:00] by the way, this was a kind of theological whiplash every Sunday. We showed up at the CRC church, and the sermon was on Matthew 28:18-20.

And I thought, "Oh, that's my passage this week." Then we went to the charismatic church. You know how things work in a charismatic church. You, you, you have no idea what's gonna happen. In the middle of worship, you know, people dancing in the aisle, slain in the spirit. This was a very, very happening place.

And in the middle of worship, someone stood up in the audience and started declaring, you know, spontaneously, a word from the Lord, and it was Matthew 28:18-20. And I'm like, "Lord, are you following me?" And for two weeks, every time I turned on the radio or opened a book or, you know, happened upon a conversation, it, it was that passage again, over and over again.

I, "Okay, Lord, I'll go. I'll go and make disciples of all nations." So I, I did organize my life, um, in that direction. The whole plan was to be a missionary. So all through high [00:06:00] school, while my peers were at the mall, I was reading missionary biographies at home. I was kind of a weird kid. Um, I was plan- planning for short-term mission trips.

Um, I was getting ready, trying to figure out which college would teach me the skills that I needed to be a missionary. And I ended up at Multnomah Bible College in Portland, Oregon, where I studied, uh, Bible theology with a minor in Greek because I thought I was gonna be a Bible translator in the Amazon jungle.

That was the plan. Now I live in LA, and I'm not sure kind of what happened. Well- But- ... somewhere along the way you added a couple of other degrees. Uh, you- Yes. It was my freshman year that I was in a class on pedagogy. It was Intro to Church Ministries, as I recall, and we were learning teaching methods, and I was like, "Oh, this is fun.

Like, I want a class of people to try this out on." And that was the, the semester that the [00:07:00] Lord woke me up to who I was. Uh, you know, I had already said yes to him, but I re- I didn't really know myself very well, and that was the semester I called home and told my parents, "I think I'm supposed to teach." And I remember my parents on the phone saying, "Duh."

And I was like, "What do you mean duh?" And they started telling me stories about, you know, picking me up from preschool at church, like the, the preschool Sunday school class, and all the teachers were just sitting in the back of the classroom with their hands in their lap not doing anything. 'Cause I was up front, and I had all the kids lined up in chairs, and I had a Bible open upside down on my lap 'cause I didn't know how to read yet, and I was preaching to them "Jesus loves you."

So they're like, "Yeah, you're gonna teach." But I hadn't been able to see that about myself. So during my college years, I had the opportunity to teach under the supervision of one of my professors. So 19 years old, I was already teaching a college course in how to study the Bible, and it was a blast. And I thought, "What do I [00:08:00] need to do to make it, to make this the thing I can do for the rest of my life?"

And I still wanted to be a missionary. I just imagined I'd do that overseas. And so I met, uh, the man who became my husband. We joined a mission named SIM. Uh, they're an interdenominational church planting mission. We moved to the Philippines, where we were doing Muslim outreach. We were only there for about two and a half years before the Lord brought us back, uh, to work in SIM's headquarters in Charlotte.

That's where I picked up the y'all. Um, and we, we h- served with SIM for 15 years, but most of that was me in school. I, I did my master's degree at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, then went on for a PhD at Wheaton College, uh, in, in biblical theology with a concentration in Old Testament. And then it just...

I, I had, I've had moments in my life where I thought, "Lord, have I gone off track somewhere? I thought I was gonna be in the jungle, the Amazon jungle translating the Bible." And I- He reassured [00:09:00] me, "Carmen, I'm not holding you to the picture that you had of what I was calling you to do when you were 13. I, I actually walk with you, and I keep showing you what the next step is supposed to look like."

So it's been a beautiful journey of discernment and just saying, "Okay, Lord, what's next?" I th- I think I imagined vocational discernment would kind of end once I picked my major in college, and I've found that i- in every season, there's a new question. Okay, what does faithfulness look like in this season?

So I currently teach at Biola University, mostly undergrad students who are studying all kinds of majors. Um, and I get to try to light their fire about the Old Testament, and it's the best job in the world. And how long have you been at Biola? Five years. Okay, so, uh, you're, you're a wonderful storyteller.

That was a long story. And one of the, the hallmarks of a good storyteller is people put themselves into the story. Mm. And so you compare, oh, this and that. So as you were talking, uh, uh, I remembered third [00:10:00] grade where, um, I asked mom if, uh, uh, she could make some brownies for me, and she said, "Well, I've got a brownie mix.

Why don't... You can read, you can follow instructions. Why don't you go make the brownies, and let's see how they turn out?" And so I was in... And Mom, you'll remember this. I w- We were in Rochester, New York, and she came in, uh, midway through to make sure I was doing okay, and I'd added the... I'd put in the box, I'd added the oil, I'd added the egg, and I had my hands, uh-

like this. And I'm, I'm doing this to the batter. And she said, "Honey, what are you doing?" I said, "I'm following the directions, Mom. It said mix by hand." And- Great. So- There you go. There you go ... so I'm, I'm sitting there listening to your story, and then I, I fast-forward through your story. I'm thinking, "I remember, uh-

you... I took an aptitude test in ninth grade, and it said, "What, what are my skill set?" Mm-hmm. You know, so I'd know [00:11:00] what electives to take in high school. It said I was really cut out for three jobs. I was cut out to be a politician. Pff. I was I was cut out to be a, a preacher- Okay ... or I was cut out to be a lawyer.

Okay. And I thought all three of those sound pretty cool to me. Um, so I went the angle of preacher with the idea that I could be lawyer, but I fell in love... Uh, uh, Greek was fine. I mean, I, I, I took, uh, three or four years of Greek, but I really got into Hebrew and did four and a half years of Hebrew and some other sister languages, and, and it was, uh, a deci- I thought, "I'm gonna be a Hebrew professor.

I'm gonna go on to get graduate degrees. I'm gonna teach people how to read the Old Testament in the original language. I'm gonna all the rest, and I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna preach at the same time. I'm gonna get a job preaching." And my childhood preacher said, "You're not gonna do any of that. You're gonna go to law school, and then you'll continue to teach and preach and read Hebrew, but you'll not be doing it to earn a living.

[00:12:00] You'll be doing it because you're impassioned." Mm. Mm. And that got me through- Mm-hmm ... law school and here. Yeah. Um, a- We have a vision, and then God redirects And he redirects. Yeah. And, and it's where he wants us to be. Yeah, yeah. And we're glad that the vision has landed you in our little town this weekend.

Yes. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Denver, Colorado. Yeah. C- uh, Littleton? Lakewood? Where? No, D- Denver. Just Denver Denver. Yeah, Denver Denver, South Denver. I was w- like, if you're familiar with Denver- And they have, they have Christians there? They do. Nice. Lots of them. Actually, I didn't- We'll get something on the internet with that one.

That was a joke. Okay, go on. I mostly, I mostly hung out with people of Dutch descent in my little corner because we were in the CRC, and the school we attended was planted by the CRC. So basically everyone I knew was Dutch and white. I couldn't wait- Can you speak any Dutch? Uh, not really. Okay. Not really.

I have a, I have a very small handful of words, but I couldn't wait to break out. Uh, I think the missions call [00:13:00] was like, "Get me out of the bubble." Yeah. "I think there's more out there in the world." Yeah, yeah. Now, before we leave it, I do... I, you, you teach. When you were in COVID- Yeah ... uh, during that time period where life took on a Alice in Wonderland characteristic-

of little is big and big is little, and- Yeah ... we, we don't know what's real and what's not- Yeah You had an interesting interchange with your son- Yeah ... that you mentioned- Yeah ... briefly yesterday. Last week. Why don't you share that with us with the goal of being, uh, we're gonna get people to sign up for- Okay

Torah Tuesday. Yeah, so I noticed that my son was not just playing Minecraft during COVID, he was watching other people play Minecraft. Do you know, the kids do this now? Now, some don't know what Minecraft is. So Minecraft is like- A really pixelated building block game that seems really basic, but it's, like, s- took b- taken the world [00:14:00] by storm.

And so, um, kids build things, and they make farms, and they build houses, and it g- it's a- it can actually be wonderfully creative. But what I couldn't understand is why you'd wanna watch someone else play the game. And this is a whole genre out there on YouTube. You can find all these people who play video games and stream themselves playing the video game.

And so instead of playing the game, you're watching them play the game, or you're playing the game at the same time as watching them play the game. It's a lot. And I f- I sat there and thought, "What is the draw of this?" And then, "What would be the biblical studies equivalent of this?" What... If I streamed myself sitting at my desk studying, would people watch it?

Like, what if I just, like, got my books out and said, like, "Oh, I wonder about this," and I'm gonna look this up, and, "Oh, here's something." I thought, "What about, like, real time sitting at my desk?" And then I thought, "Carmen, do you really want to enslave people to your desk for hours every day? No, they need to be out doing their thing."

Um, but I decided to start a YouTube channel and try something that I had never [00:15:00] seen anyone else do before, which is kind of like a video Bible commentary. There are some other people doing it now, but I hadn't met anyone. I just thought, "What if I sat at my desk and shared what I was learning while I was studying?"

Kind of a recap on, "Here's what I discovered this week." I think it's interesting stuff. And I was working on a commentary on the Book of Exodus. I had just started work on this commentary when the pandemic hit and all the speaking engagements were canceled, and I thought, "I don't know if I can hold this in for seven years and not share it with people.

This is cool stuff." So I talked to my publisher, "Would it be all right if I said on YouTube what I'm writing in the commentary?" And by the grace of God, they said, "Yes, this is fine." So, um, you can now go to my YouTube channel, which is just under my name, Carmen Joy Eames, and sign up for Torah Tuesday. And e- every Tuesday, that, hence the name, uh, I have about a 10-minute video.

Some are longer, some are slightly shorter. [00:16:00] I originally was thinking, like, a two-minute video. That didn't work. No. And people w- people seem to like them long, so 10 to 15 minutes of me saying, uh, something about the next section of the Book of Exodus that I'm working on. So I think the current, uh, w- we've just ended chapter 31, and I've been going since 2020.

Wow, and that's, like, 10 minutes a week. Mm-hmm. We can relate to that. I said I'd teach Romans. How long you been at that? I get 50 minutes a week instead of 10. That's not fair. That's not fair. But next week will be lesson 43. Mm-hmm. And we're in Romans 10 verse 5. Yeah. So, um- Yeah, that's about right. Yeah.

When I started, we had three times as many people in here. Okay. Uh- So what you're saying is this is the elect- This, uh, yeah ... who have persevered- These, these are the- ... to the end ... electoi. These are this is the elect. This is, uh... Yeah, yeah. Um- My, my doctoral mentor taught through the Book of Deuteronomy [00:17:00] in his Sunday school class about this size, and it took him seven years to get through Deuteronomy.

So I think I inherited some of that from him. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, had a chance to... M- Baylor has published a series of books I've done- Mm-hmm ... on, on, uh, daily devotionals and teaching. Yeah. In fact, I have an announcement for you guys. Um, uh, so the first one I wrote, I, I, I did one on the Psalms. Mm-hmm. And I...

366 pages, one for each day of the year. Even on leap year. Even on leap year. That's exciting. By golly, we're not gonna leave out that. And, um, uh, and, and I'm so rule following. I mean, I... My... This is the way my brain works. I thought, "Well, I don't need to write one more." And then I thought, "Wait a minute. What if someone's, like, really diligently reading through this on a leap year?"

Yeah. Maybe just one person, and they see, oh, February 29th, there's not one, so they don't read it, and then they just- That breaks the chain ... fall out of practice. It breaks the chain. I [00:18:00] thought, "All because I was too lazy." So I'm like, "I'm gonna do that." So I've got, you know, 366, not 365. But I, I had just written it to self-publish to give- Mm-hmm

to my adult children for Christmas. Mm-hmm. And Baylor got ahold of it and said they'd publish it, they'd like to publish it, and, and they did, and it did, uh, well enough to where they said, "Hey, you got another one in you." And I thought, "Well, I'm a lawyer." "What should I do? I should write a daily devotional on the Torah."

Great idea. So I take the Torah. Well, now, the Torah, we're looking at Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Mm-hmm. So my son, um, uh, and is, is at the time doing a postdoc at Hebrew University. And, um, I'm, I'm working on the Torah. "Well, you do Genesis 1 and 2 and 3, and you can get 20 days easy. I mean- Yeah.

Oh, yeah ... there's a boatload of stuff in there, right? Yeah. I mean, Genesis 1, [00:19:00] you've got creation unfolding, you've got the, the making of, of man and woman at the end. And then Genesis 2, you've got the Garden of Eden unfolding. Genesis 3, you've got the f- you've got a boatload of material. And so I've written 20, 25 days, easy.

My son, I'm telling him what I'm doing, and he says, "Well, Dad, this is wonderful that you're writing on the Torah." He said, uh, "Why don't you follow a Hebrew parashah?" Oh, yeah. And, and a, a Hebrew, a a practicing Jew, uh, many practicing Jews, let me be a little more accurate, will through their synagogue read through the Torah each year.

And so there are these reading programs. Mm-hmm. Parashah is just the plural o- of a portion. So you've got these portions you read each year so that you re- And he said, "Why don't you align your Torah daily readings with a Hebrew reading program so that [00:20:00] a good Jew can follow along, and you'll be reinforcing the readings for the week?"

That's great. And I thought, "What a great idea." Mm-hmm. So I pull up a Hebrew parashah. Well, first of all, they read Genesis 1 through 3 in, like, one week. Oh. So I have just thrown away, you know, uh- So you started a Sunday school class? T- no, I was- They were already put up with it. But what I did do is I thought, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna throw those away, and I'll use them somewhere else."

But then I realized the second problem. Now I've got to write seven days on some Levitical chapter of bizarreness or the reference that you had from Exodus on the high priest's garment- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and the making of the garment. And, and, and I've got to write a devotional teaching- ... out of that. And so, but I made it through.

I mean, it was wonderful. It was great. And so we published it, and I was so proud of [00:21:00] myself, and only then did I realize the Hebrew reading program starts on Rosh Hashanah, starts at the new year. Mine's totally out of whack anyway. Oh. You can't... I started with a calendar. I'm goy to the- Yeah ... seat of my britches.

I mean- ... this is- January 1 ... not... Yeah. Yeah. I, so I totally messed it up. But I applaud you for what you're doing. Mm-hmm. If people wanna do it, how do they do? Carmen, uh- Carmen Joy Epps. Uh, you... Yeah, it's Carmen Joy Epps, PhD, is the YouTube channel. But if you just Google Torah Tuesday, it'll come up. Yep. Yeah.

That's right. Carmen Joy Epps or Torah- Yep, Torah Tuesday

I did take some breaks in there ... y'all can take a picture of that, and you can, like, do that, and that would be real good. Yeah. But don't quit watching your video thoughts for the day. Man. They probably pair well together. This, this is supplemental. This is only on Tuesday. All right? It actually works [00:22:00] any day of the week, but, um- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's true ... Tuesday is what holds me accountable to keep- The- ... keep 'em coming. Good point. Good point. All right, so you teach undergraduates at Biola. Mm-hmm. Um, what are you teaching this semester? I have Old Testament History and Literature, which is basically a survey class, where you try to cram the entire Old Testament into one semester.

And I don't know if you realize, the sermon this morning was on Matthew chapter 6. I'm like, wow, it's way back here. Like, the you know, the New Testament's only a quarter of the Bible, so we've gotta cover three-quarters of the Bible in one semester. It's a lot, but it's a lot of fun. Um, we just touch on each book, what are the major themes, what are the, um, major hangups that people have in these books, how can we navigate the things that feel unfamiliar or foreign to us.

So I have two sections of that class, and then I'm teaching Biblical Theology Seminar, which is for our Bible majors. We have a fast-growing Bible major at Biola of undergraduate students. All of [00:23:00] our students get a Bible minor, 30 credits of Bible and theology. If you're studying engineering or nursing or education or philosophy or whatever, everybody gets Bible theology.

But if you wanna be a Bible major, then you get, you know, extra. So I'm teaching seniors a biblical theology seminar, and it's fun because it's a class that really changed my life as an undergrad. So now I've tried to set up the class so I can replicate the conditions under which I experienced transformation.

What were they? You know, I had a, I had a professor who was an amazing communicator. He's much better than I am at, uh, allowing there to be mystery and just letting us discover things for ourselves. Uh, so he would just kind of, like, put all the ingredients on the table and then sit back and watch us struggle to put them together.

Uh, I'm not so good at that, but I have recreated some of the assignments. So the assignment that changed my life was one about tracing a theme through the whole [00:24:00] Bible, and I decided to study gardens and vineyards in the Bible. And that's when I discovered we've got a garden at the beginning, and we have a garden city at the end, and we have the Garden of Gethsemane, and we have garden imagery in other places.

We have the, the Promised Land described like a lush garden. And so it's, it, the whole story is about having lost access to the garden and trying to get it back, and God promising the blessings and curses of the covenant are about fruit- fruitfulness or wilderness. And I just saw how it was a thread that tied everything together.

It just made the Bible cohere for me. Okay, so if you take something like that, think this through for a moment. You be the class, and think about the garden And think about it in the wilderness reference, for example, right now. When Jesus is tempted- Mm-hmm ... the temptation does not come the first time in a garden.

He goes out into the wilderness- Mm-hmm ... to be tempted, [00:25:00] and it's got overhangs and echoings even in the numerology- Mm, mm-hmm ... of the wilderness wanderings of, of Israel. Israel lost faith in the wilderness. Jesus kept faith in the wilderness. Mm-hmm. We've got a, a, a new story starting with Jesus. Mm-hmm. But then you take the garden theme even further, and when Jesus is resurrected and He becomes the first of the new creation in a sense- Mm-hmm

um, h- what's Mary mistaken Him for? The gardener. A gardener. And she's not wrong. And she's not wrong. Yeah. Though she didn't have her glasses on. You know what I... You know what I love about that story, Mark? Mm-hmm. And I don't think I realized it when I did the theme tracing assignment as an undergrad, but later, um, I realized the parallels between Jesus' encounter with Mary in the garden and Eve in the garden, uh, Garden of Eden.

And I realized, you know, God could've written women out of the story because of Eve's rebellion. He could've been like, "Well, I can't trust you. Uh, we're gonna just write you out." But [00:26:00] instead, He, He meets the first one, uh, commissioned to bring the news of the, the most important news of human history, is a woman in a garden who's gonna go tell the boys what, what's happened.

And I... There's something really captivating about the fact that all four Gospels record that Mary Magdalene was there in the garden, and I see it not just as a, uh, an encouragement to her personally, but a reinstatement of the collaboration that God intended from the very beginning. I, I love that. I also...

That, that echoes in my brain. You see, this is the problem. We could be here for hours- ... talking to you guys. We- I've got a flight at Yeah, yeah, and I've got a, a commitment as well. But think about, think about that in terms of another story. We know about Jesus, um, uh, frequently teaching at the home of Mary and Martha and, and Lazarus.

I mean, that was like a hangout place where- Mm-hmm ... He did a lot of teaching, and we have the story of Jesus teaching there, [00:27:00] and Martha's in the kitchen, uh, making the, um, hors d'oeuvre tray- Mm-hmm ... and, uh, finishing up the hummus and the pita- Mm-hmm ... and getting it all ready to go. Uh, no shrimp, no salami.

Don't forget the olives. But, uh, did have the olives, and, and, uh, she, she's got the charcuterie board going. And, and, but Mary is in with Jesus listening to the teaching of Torah. Mm-hmm. Serious. Now, this is at a time where for many Jewish rabbis, not all, but for many Jewish rabbis, women should not even be allowed to study the Torah.

Mm. It's considered- Blasphemous. It's considered sinful. Women would be segregated out within the synagogue, but the idea of a woman studying Torah, uh, some rabbis we have writing, saying that this is, is absolutely appallingly wrong. And Martha says to Mary, "Get in [00:28:00] here where you belong and help me out Jesus says, "Time out."

"Let her learn." Let her l... She's where she needs to be. And, and the idea that Christianity, uh, is, is anti-women- Mm ... or women subjugation- Mm-hmm ... is a total misunderstanding of the message- Yeah ... of Jesus and Paul. Yeah. You know, Mark, from time to time, people will throw things at me on YouTube in the comments like, "What are you even doing out there teaching?

You're a woman. Get home to the kitchen." Um, so one time this happened to me, uh, and I'm thinking, "If, if it violates your conscience to hear a woman teach, what are you doing on my YouTube channel?" Like, like actually, shame on you. Yeah. But anyway- And how dare you read my book? Right, right. But anyway, I, at, on this particular occasion, I was feeling a little snarky, so I went and plopped my-

my laptop on the kitchen table so that I could work on my [00:29:00] Exodus commentary in the kitchen, where I supposedly belonged. And then I did a little search in my Bible software for the word kitchen. Turns out it's nowhere in the Bible. It never, ever says kitchen anywhere. Well. So yeah, I appreciate that- Yeah

that Jesus let Mary learn, because that is my desire to... I would, I would far rather be in the library than the kitchen. Better is- Anyway ... one day in your courts than 1,000 elsewhere. One day in your stacks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Than 1,000 elsewhere. Specifically the courts where the scrolls are. Yes. Uh. And, and I married a man who feels called, he, he feels a sense of calling to release me to do this, so he does all our grocery shopping.

He does all our cooking. Um, I've taken over the laundry now. Hank does that for Miss Carolyn. You know? It's been a beautiful partnership. Every time I walk in the door from work and I can smell dinner, I think, "The Lord loves me, and so does my husband." They say a man, uh, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, and I'm like, you know, it's, that's not gender specific.[00:30:00]

It's meeting my, uh, meeting my needs too. Yeah. That's fantastic. Well, you have written a number of books. Your commentary coming out is in that Baker series- Mm-hmm ... that Bill Arnold... Bill, would you stand up and let me- Yeah ... introduce you to everybody? This is Dr. Bill Arnold. Now, Bill- Some of you probably have a commentary I gave you that Bill wrote.

Around 2008 or nine, he wrote a commentary on Genesis that, at the time, was, uh, without a doubt the best one I was reading, that I had read. It was amazing. And I took that commentary. I gave away countless. Uh, uh, I've got a, a friend, I'm sure he's a friend of yours too, Tremper Longman- Who subsequently came out with a commentary, and Tremper drops footnotes three times and quotes me in his commentary.

Wow. So I've quit giving away Bills, and I give away Trempers now. Um, but if Bill does another edition and- There's still time, Mark. I can still put you in mind ... and cites some of my [00:31:00] works, I, I can start buying his by the case again. But, um, uh, uh, but Bill is the editor of this Baker ... What, what is it called?

It's the- Baker Commentary on the Old Testament. Yes. Uh, it's BCOT. BCOT. And, um, uh, he's the editor, so he's the editor of your- Yes ... uh, volume on Exodus. Which I finished in July and sent it off to him, and he read it. And so we're now done with our work while they're working on the copy editing, so next fall is when you can finally find that.

Which reminds me of what I was going to announce to you, but I had- Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah ... forgotten. Thank you. Yeah. Um, December 3rd is when Baylor will release the next volume in my series of daily teachings and devotionals. Nice. So you will get a free hardback copy if you show up to class on the Sunday after that, and we will be back in our big space, so it'll be easier.

And if you don't show up, you have to buy it, and they're expensive. Um, but, uh, it's [00:32:00] on Old Testament narratives. Nice. So I've now done, I've done the Psalms, I've done the Torah, I've done the teachings of Jesus, I've done the Epistles, I've done the minor prophets- Oh, isn't it good fun? ... and I've done... And, uh, yeah, yeah.

It's so fun. It's so much fun. So fun. All right. Well, anyway, so Bill we're gonna have back in about a year to do one of these weekend things- Yay ... and you'll get to hear him up here, God willing, or I'd make him join us right now. But, uh, just an amazing, amazing Old Testament scholar. Mm-hmm. Uh, teaches at, at Asbury in Kentucky, has been there for 18 gazillion years.

Yeah. Yeah, uh, 31 of his 32 years of life, and, uh, he's, he's just, uh- ... gonna be good as well. And- Bill, do you remember when we first, first met? This was at an Asbury reception, I think at SBL or something. Yeah. And I was not yet a PhD student, but I was applying to PhD programs. And I came over and met you, and I asked something about, like, I was trying to feel out, like, would you be my supervisor?

And you said, "My dance card is full." [00:33:00] But he became your editor. But he became my editor- Yeah ... so it worked out. So there. Hey, you gotta appreciate honesty. Yes. You know? You, you, you gotta appreciate honesty. I mean, you gotta know your limits. Yeah. That, that's a quotation. But now he's, now he's supervising one of my students who came from, from Talbot to study at Asbury, so thrilled about that.

Yeah. Yeah, you just, uh, came close to quoting a great philosopher. Oh. Um, uh- On accident ... Outlaw Josey Wales, Clint Eastwood. Uh, man's gotta know his own limitations. Okay, there we go. That's it. Um, I think it was Josey Wales. It was definitely Clint Eastwood in some incarnation. Um, um, okay, so give us a Torah Tuesday.

Give us a delightful one that stands out in your mind. Yes, your dad wants you to say how many of th- those episodes do you have? So I think I have about 180, maybe 185 just on Exodus, so videos on Exodus. So about 10 minutes each. You could just knock yourself out and binge, binge [00:34:00] Torah Tuesday for- Yeah

for days. Um, uh, let me think of one that's recent that's kind of fun. There's a, there's a v- a very strange verse that I mentioned last night in the lecture, uh, Exodus 38:8. All right. Let's pull it up and let everybody look at it. This is ... Nobody got up this morning and read this one for their devotions because it's in the middle- Well, I think a lot of us have committed it to memory

it's in the , it's in the middle of the tabernacle fulfillment. So if you can make it through all the instructions for how to build the tabernacle, just when you think you've caught a break, then they happen all over again as they build the tabernacle. Um, and in 38:8, we get this bonus material that doesn't appear in the instructions that tells us where they got the bronze to make the washbasin in the tabernacle.

And it says, "He made the basin of bronze with its stand of bronze from the mirrors of the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting." And there is, if you want a really interesting [00:35:00] snapshot of kind of interpretive issues on a biblical passage, go t- start checking out what the commentaries have to say about these women.

This is all we got, but you, but there are all sorts of speculations about the mirrors having been confiscated from them because they were being, uh, bad, they were naughty in some way. Um, the mirrors being used in a military operation to give signals. Uh, that these women must... or that we know women weren't doing anything meaningful in the tabernacle because the job was all for men, so they must have been doing some menial task.

Maybe they were clean- cleaners and they would come in and clean the tabernacle. So y- you actually k- kind of learn a lot about interpreters and their, um, presuppositions when you get to this text. Uh, the word for serve, um, the who served at the tent of meeting, is the same word used for the service of the Levites in, uh, the priests in the [00:36:00] tabernacle.

So it, it seems to me most likely that whatever they're doing is approved tabernacle service. We don't have a lot of detail about them. There's a, a, a kind of a throwaway comment in 1 Samuel, I don't remember the exact verse, about Eli's sons getting into trouble with the, they were sleeping with the women- With the women

who served at the tent of meeting. That's the only other mention. Yeah. Um, and that's part of what- 1 Samuel 2:22, I believe. Thank you. Thank you. Sure. That's free. That, that's- It was right down here on the footnote. Excellent. 1 Samuel 2:22. Always good, always good to have a study Bible on hand. So- I impressed you for a minute there, though, didn't I?

Yeah. You did, you did. Oh, Lanier. Don't play Bible trivia with him. So, so I think it's from that verse that a lot of people then make a negative assumption about these women- Mm-hmm ... that they were somehow sexually suspect, and that's why their mirrors were confiscated. Um, but Samuel doesn't actually condemn the women for [00:37:00] anything.

It condemns the men. It condemns the sons of Eli. So we have no idea if there was consent, uh, to this sexual activity. Uh, it just points to the fact that there were still women serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting in some capacity. My own theory about them is, um, you know, ritual purity is super important when you have a tabernacle.

This is sacred space, and so you can't just waltz in any time you want to. You have to be in a state of ritual purity. There's all these rules in Leviticus about ritual purity, and many of those laws have to do with- body fluids, um, of a sexual nature. And so a woman was not allowed to enter into sacred space if she was on her period, if she had just given birth, if she had a, a long-term discharge, and men had their own sets of things they couldn't enter for.

So, um, so I wonder if there were representatives at the entrance to the tabernacle who were interviewing people, you know? Like, "When was the first day of your last period?" Kind of thi- Like, the... If that's a, a [00:38:00] question you wouldn't want a male priest asking the women who are coming to bring offerings, and so, so perhaps the women are, are handling the women, and there's men who handle the men.

That's, that's my kind of working hypothesis. There's no way to prove it. You know, I always had a working hypothesis, uh, from a, a New Testament perspective, and I, I won't say hypothesis. It may not even merit that, and I'll probably get an email from, I don't know, somebody saying, "Idiot." But, but i- I always thought it interesting that Luke is the one who has the virgin birth.

Luke is a physician. Mm-hmm. He's one of the few- Mm ... gospel writers, certainly it would not include the other ap- uh, or the apostles- Yeah ... who had comfort talking to women- Yeah ... about those issues. Yeah. And, and as- And he clearly- ... as a doctor, he ha- would have troubles. All right, now Mary, exactly how did this thing go down?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? And he asks her, he clearly- Yeah ... interviews [00:39:00] Mary- Oh, yeah ... because we get her perspective on the story. Exactly. What I love about Luke, and that's my n- uh, next, next project, is a commentary on Luke, uh, and its Old Testament background. But I love that Luke always includes stories about women alongside stories about men.

Yeah. So he tells a parable, uh, a- about men, and then he tells a parable that would relate to women, right? Side by side. The, a miracle with a man, a miracle with a woman. So there's a sense of inclusion. Luke is aware of who's in the room, and the importance of letting you know that you're part of God's story.

Yeah. Uh, this class, occasionally when I'm gone, David Capes will teach for me. Yeah. And this class loves David. David's wonderful. I love David. Great guy. Boy, did he stick his foot in his mouth last night. Oh, yeah? It was delightful. So David is introducing, uh, Dr. Carmen Joy Hauns. And he makes a point of saying, "We've got some of her books here."

And one of your books that has just come out are stories- Mm ... about women- Mm-hmm ... in the Bible. Mm-hmm. What's the title of the [00:40:00] book? It's called Fierce and Faithful: 25 Women of the Bible Who Dared to Trust God. It's a children's book. It's a children's book- Ages eight to 12 ... designed for children especially between the ages of- Eight and 12

eight and 12. So David Capes said, uh, "Designed for children between the ages of eight and 12. Uh, if you've got a granddaughter or a daughter, uh, you'll wanna get this book." And Carmen said, "Or grandson or son." And then like, yeah, uh-huh. Yeah. Uh, let's go ahead. So just so you know, the women have to sit and listen to stories about men all the time.

You know, by the time I was a- an adult, I had lots of practice in imagining myself, you know, doing the, the mental translation. You're hearing a, a story about a person in the Bible like Moses or Paul or whatever, and I'm translating that to my experience as a woman. Like, if, if you'd asked me as a 13-year-old, "Who's the Bible character you identify with the most?"

I would've said Paul. Paul is called by God to preach [00:41:00] the gospel where no foundation's been laid, and that's the sense of calling that I had, so I would've said I identify with Paul. You don't ask very many little boys who they identify with the Bible in h- in the Bible and hear them say, "You know, Mary is really my model."

Um, Mary believed the wor- the word of the Lord and got to participate in h- but the women of the Bible are actually wonderful role models, so I think our young men need to hear these stories, too. Yeah, that's wonderful. So, um, you've got that book. Now, I, we're, we're, I don't want us to run out of time. We've got about eight minutes left.

Okay. You've got a book on Sinai- Mm-hmm ... and the name of God. Mm-hmm. Uh, Yahweh, uh, as, uh, uh, revealed on Sinai- Yeah ... and why it's important to us. Yeah, yeah. Um- You want the elevator pitch on that? Yeah. Why don't you give us the elevator pitch on that book? Yeah. So I, I went to Wheaton for my PhD, and I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the [00:42:00] verse in the Ten Commandments that says not to take the Lord's name in vain.

And my advisor, Dan Block, was convinced that we've all been misunderstanding it, that it's not actually telling us that when you're driving down the freeway and somebody cuts you off, you shouldn't say, you know, "God blank blank." Um, a- and that y- but that's mostly how we grew up, right? You're, you take the Lord's name in vain by using God's name as a swear word, and he was convinced that that's not what this verse is saying because in Hebrew, it's, "You shall not carry or bear the name of Yahweh your God in vain."

And, and most translation committees have come to that verse and they've said, uh, "Oh, well, we don't carry names, we say them, so this must really be about speaking the name with-" Hmm ... "a sense of reverence." Hmm. Um, but he said, "Look, it's... in just, just a few chapters later," I think it's 28, uh, Exodus 28:29 if you wanna pull that one up, Mark, um, where it's [00:43:00] right in the middle of the high priestly garments instructions, and God tells Moses that the high priest is supposed to have a medallion, a gold medallion on his turban.

Did we find it? Yep, yep. Um- Oh, yeah, here it is. Yep. 29. And that, that, uh... Oh yeah, there we go. "So Aaron shall bear the names of the sons of Israel in the breastpiece of judgment on his heart." So this is not the, the, the medallion, this is the, um, the pouch that he wears on his chest that has the 12 gemstones on it, and he's literally carrying the names of 12 tribes, and that's meaningful because it means he represents them.

His ministry includes all of them. They can't be written out of the story. When, when, uh, when God forgives Israel, he's forgiving all of them. And so he, he... it says he bears their names, and that's the same phrase that we get in the commandment not to bear the name of Yahweh in vain. But Aaron also literally bears God's name on his forehead on this [00:44:00] medallion.

Uh, it's verse 36, uh, same chapter, "Make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it as a seal, 'Holy to Yahweh.'" So it says, "Holy belonging to Yahweh," on his forehead. He's walking around as an intermediary between, between God and Israel. He, he mediates God to them and them to God. So the, the idea was, um, th- of my advisor that he wanted me to test out in my dissertation that Israel is the people who bear God's name, and the commandment is telling them not to bear it in vain, not to misrepresent Him.

Don't say that you belong to Yahweh and then live just like your Canaanite neighbors. Um, you need to be distinct, have a different, uh, different life. And so my, my dissertation was published by Eisenbrauns. It's Bearing Yahweh's Name at Sinai: A Reexamination of the Name Command of the Decalogue. That's a mouthful.

There's Hebrew in it, so if you're like Mark and you read Hebrew, that one's for you. But I really believe every Christian needs to know this. You bear God's [00:45:00] name. You represent Him to the nations. You're in a role, a representational role. So I rewrote it for laypeople, and the book is called Bearing God's Name: Why Sinai Still Matters.

And I, I truly believe if we wanna understand who we are as Christians and what our job is in the world, then we need to go back to Mount Sinai. Okay, so, uh, having written a- That was a long- ... commentary on... No, that was great ... elevator ride. No, that was not. We were going to the 75th floor. Sweet. In Dubai. Yeah, in Dubai.

And, um, having written on, on the Torah, one of the, the launchpads that I used, which doesn't- Which, which I think complements- Mm-hmm ... what you have said and what you were teaching in your book, is not taking the word bear and concentrating on it, but rather on the, the Hebrew word name- Mm ... Shem in Hebrew. We think of a name as a label.

Mm. But that Hebrew word, I think almost [00:46:00] more translates into a resume. Hmm. Mm-hmm. A CV. Mm-hmm. It's your- Yeah ... character. Mm-hmm. It's who you are- Mm-hmm ... and what you've done. Yeah. If your character and your actions don't, uh, align with your name, they change your name. Yeah. Um, because your, your name's not simply a label.

Yeah. And, and so for example, in Psalm 9:10, it's a great example of- Mm-hmm ... understanding this. Those... Oh, thank you, Carmen. Yep. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. I was gonna just prick my finger and use blood- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... so this will be a lot easier. Those who know your- Yeah ... name- Yeah ... put their trust in you, because you've not forsaken an action- Yeah

those who seek you. Yeah. The parallel is the action. Your name is your activity. Mm-hmm. It's what you've done. So when we don't want to carry the name of the Go- o- of the Lord God in vain, we should never live as if [00:47:00] God's not active- Mm-hmm ... and working. Mm-hmm. As if this isn't the God who carried us through the Red Sea.

That's right. And I think we take the name of the Lord God in vain every time, not just we publicly carry it- Mm-hmm ... but we personally carry it in vain when we think, "Well, God's not up to this." Yeah, yeah. When our fears trump our faith- Um, we're taking His name lightly. We're taking who He is and what He's done lightly.

We're carrying it in our own life too lightly. You know, there's such a great example of this in the Book of Exodus with Moses because when he encounters God at the bush that doesn't burn up- He, he learns the name of God. "My name is Yah- Yahweh is the name- Yeah ... you shall call me for your generations."

Well, what does that mean? And I think a lot of the history of interpretation has been speculation over the etymology, the background, and origin of the name Yahweh, like what does it actually mean? And I think the revelation of the [00:48:00] name Yahweh at the bush that doesn't burn up is a, is an invitation to come and see.

What does it mean for God to be Yahweh? Well, you have to watch Him at work across the pages of Exodus, and by the time you get to chapter 34 when Moses says, "Show me your glory," and Yahweh shows up and more fully reveals His character, by that point Moses now understands what does it mean for God to be Yahweh?

What does Yahweh mean? If, if Mark announced to you that he was gonna have Carmen Imes come to speak and you'd never heard of me before, it's not gonna help you to go pull a baby name book off the shelf and look up Carmen. Excellent point. You would see that it's, it's a, it's a Latin derivation and it means song, but I wasn't gonna sing for you this morning, and you can be glad about that.

Um, eh, to, to understand who Carmen is, you gotta follow me around for a while, and then you'd know, "Oh, she's somebody who goes on and on about the Book of Exodus." You just poke her and she's got stuff to say about Exodus. Exodus. That's who I am, and you find that out [00:49:00] by, by walking with me for a while, and that's how we get to know the significance of God's name is by walking with Him and seeing Him at work.

Amen. Uh, I can tell you that this has, has been an issue forever and a day, the holiness of the name of God. Mm-hmm. Back in the time of Jesus, if you go to the Dead Sea Scrolls when they were writing, uh, scripture or even a, a commentary- Mm-hmm ... the Habakkuk Pesher, when they'd get to the name of God- Yeah

they would either, um, uh, write it in ancient Hebrew paleographic type- Mm-hmm ... uh, letters- Mm-hmm ... instead of a different type of writing font, or more likely just put four dots. Mm. One for each letter. Mm-hmm. Because they didn't even wanna write the name of God- Mm ... in any common way. They wouldn't say the name of God.

And, and I had a, my, one of my Hebrew professors was, uh, raised in an Orthodox Jewish home, and it was first year Hebrew, and we were translating the, the- The, uh, Joseph story and one of the young ladies, the first thing we do is read it in Hebrew, and so she's reading, uh- Yeah ... verse [00:50:00] 30, or chapter 39 verse one, uh, uh, which says, uh- There we go

uh, and she's reading it in Hebrew. "Now Joseph was taken down to Egypt and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh-" Mm-hmm ... "captain of the guard." And then verse two, "The Lord," and you see it's all capitals, so we know it's Yahweh. "The Lord was with..." And so she's reading it, and he had taught us to s- just read Hashem, the name.

You don't say the name. You just read it. And she was trying to pronounce it, and it doesn't have vocalization, so she's, like, at a loss, and she's like Ya- Yeah ... Yehv. And he's thinking, "Lightning is about to strike- ... because she's gonna say the name of God." Yeah. And he's, "Stop, stop, stop." And she says, "No, I can do this.

Yahv." "No, no, no, no." "J- J- All right, let me try again. Yahweh." "No, no, no, I don't want you to try." "No, I can do this. I promised, uh, Professor Klein I've got this. Yahv." And he was like, "Please," and he puts his hands over, over the, the, the- Over the page ... text. Says, "No, we don't, we don't read that name." She was j- and she, you know, [00:51:00] she was clueless, sorta.

Sorry, but- Um, anyway, the name of God. Yeah, yeah. Which Jesus had no trouble saying and- Yeah ... nearly getting stoned over it. Yeah. Um, um, okay, we are out of time. I went one minute over. Mea culpa, I'm sorry. Uh, um, would you join me in thanking Dr. Carmen Ihde? And we do clear this space. Uh, uh, those of you who may be visiting, uh, this is a student space that we've taken over during this hour because, uh, our space is being used for the worship assembly.

But, but, uh, y- nobody's allowed in student spaces unless they've been cleared, uh, under safety protocols, because that's the way we take care of the students. So we do have to, to expedite, uh, leaving here, and I'm sorry. But let me bless you in the name of Jesus before we leave. Mm-hmm. Mm. Father, in the name of Jesus, I ask your blessings on all who may hear this.

We ask your blessings on Carmen, her safe travel back. Thank you for gracing us with hers and so many other people's presence [00:52:00] today. We do pray blessings on her ministry, but Lord, we pray that you will bless each one of us in our walks. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. May we do everything we do because of who you are and what you've done for us.

Mm-hmm. In your name, in Jesus, we pray. Amen. Amen.